A few residual problems...

[CA]

I replaced the coils on my bike a few months back and have yet to fix the residual problems. I found one major one in my kill switch but now I have one or two more.

1. My headlamp warning light is on along with my right front turn signal constantly on solid. When I try to start it the rpm needly goes a little funky and goes to about 4k rpm until it starts. I don't know wht electrical issue could be causing this.

2. The bike runs really rough. I believe I have narrowed it down to number 1 cylinder. I often pull the plug and it doesnt change anything. Yet it does sometimes seem to cut in, and when I thought I heard it yesterday I reached down and pulled the number 1 and heard a difference. But most of the time the thing runs like crap. It may have something to do with my install of the wires to the Mikes Green coils but I cant seem to fix it. It starts and runs, but it sounds like a tractor!!

Please help!

[Incubus]

Just a wild thought. I don't know how you routed the spark plug wires, but the wires can short out to the head if the wire is coming in contact with it, or very close to it. Try starting the bike is a very dark garage and look for sparks or arcing. That why OE wires have shielding on the wires.

Patrick

[TopCatGr58]

Hey CA,

Sounds like you have some wires shorting or such?? Sounds like you need to pull off the headlight and check things out in the bucket for scraped, pinched, exposed wires. The headlight warning light will come on when your low beam has burned out, and the RLU has switched it to the hi beam at reduced wattage. With the tach needle jumping, it's electronic so can do fun stuff when it gets errant electrical signals or surges!

As for the Mikes coils, did you bypass the ballast resistor when you installed them?? IF you didn't, then they are not getting their full required 12 volts, and that can cause poor spark. With the new coils, would assume you also put in new wires and caps.

Haven't searched for your other threads/posts, but a synopsis of what you've done to the bike/engine would be helpful, you're not giving us much info with this NEW THREAD!?

T.C.

[CA]

Yes,

Your right Top Cat, here is the link to my old thread which alludes to my struggle with this at the beginning of the summer. I wasn't getting a good response on it anymore probably because the thing was a mammoth. I will try and write a short synopsis.

1. I had what seemed exactly to be coil failure.
2. I replaced coils with mikesxs, it worked for a week.
2.5 I removed the ballast resistor during install and made sure leads were correctly connected.
3. Bike started exhibiting exact problems again.
4. It eventually would not start at all.
5. A huge find which was pretty recent, was finding the kill switch to be completely broken and corroded and wasn't passing a good current. This seemed to be half the issue.

Current symptoms:
1. Starts and runs. Runs really rough
- She is running on 3 cylinders, but its more complicated than that, sometimes it sounds like (and I actually believe is from pulling the number 1 plug cap at highway speeds when it sounds like it is purring at certain rpms) all four cut in at certain rpm. But I feel like when I first got the bike it ran on 3 cylinders better than this. Before it warms up there is a lot of misfiring from number 1 etc. Once the bike warms up it runs better, but not like it should. Also I see a nice visible spark from number 1 cylinder, but that seems to be the problem cylinder.

2. As mentioned earlier I have that weird electrical thing with the rpm and the right turn signal. Who knows if they are connected. I did go through the wiring pretty extensively trying to find the coil issue so I have no idea where it would be. I have went through the headlight bucket and could not find anything to be amiss.

She is rideable, but for a XS11 owner who can tune her just right, it feels worse than not riding to hear how bad she sounds beneath your legs. This problem has been plaguing me for the entirety of summer and I have been looking for it pretty decently. I am now being tempted to take her to a mechanic (gasp! ) which I swore I never would. Its just frustrating.

Current hypothesis':
1. Maybe I switched a shim incorrectly in my last valve job which is not letting my number 1 cylinder receive compression.
2. I did not install the mikes green coils correctly. Maybe they arent contacting the at the coil fully. (I already changed out the number 1 cap and wire yesterday to no avail.)
3. Maybe my autolite plugs are resistant along with my NGK caps
4. Maybe there is some mysterious electrical demon hiding deep within the wiring. (I pray not)
5. I checked timing before by just making sure TDC on 1 matched with the mark on the circle which it did a month or so before.

I hate electrical...why can't it be my carbs...which I may swap out with my brother's just to make sure...

The funny thing is that this all started happening when we brought home my brother's 79 xs11 special. I think she is just green with envy

Thanks

[Larrym]

Which Cup has the Pea under it? Watch Closely!

CA,

Yeah...Most of the time we owners can figure out what's wrong and take care of it. Roughly about 4 out of 5 times. See this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle

But it's that 5'th time that puts our knickers in a twist, eh???

I'd offer that whatever problem you're having is not one where a part is totally "dead/wack". When something really "dies" finding it and replacing it is a challenge but as far as difficulty? Tough sometimes but you'll usually find it through persistence whether it's fuel, mechanical, or even electrical.

Likely that what you've got is an INTERMITTENT problem.

Those are the worst. Static tests with voltmeters may not find it. Visually checking it out won't always give you that "Eureka" moment. Problem will appear-go away-appear-go away while you're driving the bike. And of course for all those "tests" in the garage: Perfect readings.

Fuel? Mechanical? Electrical? Each system may/may not be the one where your Gremlin is hiding at this point.

Swapping out the carbs will give you the info to rule out or focus on at least one of these systems. As a "technical" action it would provide you with the info needed to guide your further actions. Until you rule out one system or the other any actions you take are at best "educated guesses" and random chance. Lot's of time and money can be spent using this "method" of troubleshooting. 4 out of 5 times this method get's us by. So we guessed which cup the pea is under in that "shell" game. Hurrah!!!
.

Swap the carbs with your brother's and you'll know which woodpile your skunk is/is not hiding under.

[yamtom]

missing number one

Maybe I can give you some reason to look at your carbs. Before I had my carbs perfect, I was getting exactly this kind of thing, and it was a plugged hole in the fuel bowl. Every hole in that carb must flow something , and that tiny one in the fuel bowl is easy to plug. I think it may be only one mm big, but if she dont flow youre describing what it does. Not to take anything away from all this electric stuff, because obviously there is a short somewhere or crossed wires or something electrical.

[CA]

well

its not the carbs. My brothers well tuned carbs sounded exactly the same. I am tempted to pull the cam cover just to rule out my valve clearances...but I really doubt that is it....

So i don't know...

[Larrym]

Hunting and NOT finding can be good...

Compression check across all 4 cylinders. If #1 is good/similar to the rest of the "team" then you've likely ruled out "mechanical" system. A little premature to start pulling covers, IMO.

I s'pose your brother gets more than socks from you this XS-Mas....

[CA]

haha that he does. THe compression check I did a month ago under these same conditions showed approx. 150-125-150-150

So I guess not mechanical, damn electricity.

Thoughts? Should I check how much power each plug is getting? Not sure how to do that...

Timing?

[Larrym]

Door #3: Electrical!! Tell our Guest What He's Won, Don Pardot!!

CA,

Well, at least know you KNOW (with a high degree of probability...) that it really is electrical.

"Whatever cannot be shunned must be embraced."

I'd start with getting out a DMM and doing side-by side comparisons/readings of the two coils. (IIRC you have aftermarket coils so the "clymers" manual readings aren't valid anymore.) The manual does give the info as far as where to put the meter leads in order to measure the "Resistances":

Test#1.) Across the dc inputs to the coil(s).
Test#2.) the high voltage outputs to the coil(s).

Just get a piece of paper, take the readings on one coil, write them down, and then do the same measurements on the other coil. I'd guess that if there's something really wonky then a different reading from one coil to the other would stand out like a sore thumb. I mean the same readings or very similar should be present on each coil. And even though the coils are "NEW" doesn't really mean all that much. The way that Quality assurance works now-a-days is that the part is "good" until the customer installs it and finds out that it's NOT good. (Oh! The joys of the "Product Return" process...)

No need to pull the coils off: just take the fuel tank off and then make sure to disconnect one coil's wires at a time. Reconnect each coil's wires immediately after doing the tests so you don't have any confusion as to what wire actually went where.

These resistance checks are an INDIRECT method of determining if the coil is good/bad. The DIRECT way involves a few alligator clip "Jumpers", pulling the high voltage leads off the spark plugs (but leaving the plugs installed in the head...), installing a known good set of plugs into the loose high voltage wires, and then making a light show that TESLA would appreciate. (Or not...the bad coil wouldn't put on a show for ya...)

'Lectrical really isn't all that bad or complicated, IMHO. Just a matter of starting somewhere and following the components or wires back along the way. Here, you're starting at the plugs and working your way back to the battery. One thing at a time.

Problems and frustration from 'Lectrical mainly come from "Guessing" what is wrong instead of doing your homework and taking the readings or getting your face in there. Playing "Pin the Tail on th Donkey" and guessing in order to find a electrical problem can take way more time/money than doing the homework.

I mean...the riding season where I live is only so long.

[planedick]

Compression

Those compression reading are no way alike. 3 at 150 (little extra carbon) and one at 125, sounds like maybe a leaking valve. Do a leak down test. Bring it up to the top of the compression stroke, pump it up and see how long it takes to bleed off. You need a fitting for the compression tester with a fitting for a guage and a line for compressed air that has the check ball in it.

[CA]

thanks for the heads up plane dick I will def need to chase that down, but first I would really like to know I can get her running...haha.

larry your exactly right about facing the electrical demon. I ran the tests. The primary resistance is 3.3 on both. Now my cheaper meter doesn't seem to have a high enough setting on ohms to check the secondary, so for kicks I took out my messed up old meter that I don't think gives correct numbers but has every setting. The old meter read 16.9 and 17.3 on the secondary. So I don't trust those numbers but they are close so I am fairly confident they are good. Oh and I just ran the tests on my old coils and they are within spec. Looks like I spent the money for nothing. My own doing. But now I must find the true culprit!

it does sound like pickup wires, but I distinctly remember running the resistance on the from the tci wires and they were rock solid so I am still stumped!!

[CaptonZap]

The problem with the breaks in the pickup wires is that they are encased in some really stretchy wire insulation, and the insulation can pull the broken strands back together when they are in one position, and stretch enough to open up in another. So you have to get down there and start pulling each half inch of wire untill you find one spot that acts like a rubber band. I measured the resistance at the Molex plug, and they where all good, but when I got down to the wires at the pickups, I found two breaks, which, when fixed, cured the problem. CZ

[Larrym]

Prima Non Nocere: First and Foremost Do No Harm

CA,

I agree with Planedick that if those compression readings are valid/repeatable then the engine does have something mechanically wonky in #2 cylinder. (25 Psi loss is a little more than just "out of spec"...) I suggested moving forward into the electrical system because I as I understood the situation, the bike was "running" in spite of that one mechanically wimpy cylinder.

The test results you have just provided about your present coils and the previous coils with both sets checking out good is useful information. My interpretation is that indeed you might have replaced the coils in an attempt to solve the problem without actually confirming that the coils were the problem. If you say that the problem went away for a brief time after replacing the coils then it may/may not have been just a coincidence or the result of inadvertently jiggling a connection/wire that was just barely making contact in the first place.

I still advise resisting the temptation to do what is called "cherry picking" at this point. "Sounds like the pick-up wires." or "could be the TCI" and then swapping them out with new ones like you did with your coils? Just more guesswork IMHO.

Stay on track by following the path backwards from the plugs. If the coils weren't the problem then leap to the next points upstream and do the TESTS. Let the DATA drive your actions instead of the other way around. At this stage there are components and then the actual wires/connections between them.

I would suggest that you talk to you brother again. This time I'd propose that you use his bike as an example of a functional machine to test the components that you want to test: TCI, Ignition switch, etc. These are key parts on your bike which may/may not be that skunk which is ruining your riding season.

In practice, the amount of disassembly on your brother's bike can be minimized. (Take off the seat to swap/test your TCI on his bike, remove the headlight in order to swap your ignition switch, etc.) The idea is to try as many of your "components" as you can on his bike ONE AT A TIME. If your brother's bike doesn't duplicate your problem with your component then remove your component, replace/reconnect your brothers part, and then VERIFY that your brother's bike still runs the way it did before you took action. Then and ONLY then do you move on to the next "test".

This is a valid technique which will likely rule out everything except the wires/connections on your bike. (Which of course will be the only thing left to look at after this process...oh JOY!!!)

Just saying that there really is a method to finding your way through the maze of wires and components.


BTW, along the lines of "Chicken or the Egg": Did your problem present itself before or after you adjusted your valve clearances? Or was it there all along?

[CA]

Work has got me down so I have delayed working on the bike, but I intend to tonight.

I have switched the TCI and ruled that out as a possibility. I am not aware of how to switch out the ignition, or what that connects to. I will look on the forums about this.

As to the valve adjustment...I didn't have any of these problems before! ha. but I was good for about a month after the adjustment. Perhaps a shim didn't seat properly, or I zoned out and put an intake on and exhaust...who knows. Perhaps its worth a look at this point. 125 psi...hmm

Other than that I am still lost. Thanks for your help so far!