Another tubeless rim question...

[psycoreefer]

Does anyone know if it is required that all tubeless rims have "tubeless" stamped in them, or is it possible to have a tubeless rim that doesn't specify that it is tubeless? Can anyone point me to relevent "law" or "regulations"?

The back story is that I had a new rear tire mounted about 5 months ago, upon returning home from the rally last weekend I noticed that it was down a little, I filled it and today its low again, so I dunk it in the bath tub and see that it is leaking where the bead locks used to be, they were replaced with some sort of rubber plug before I got the bike. And no, It didn't leak one bit before the rally, only thing I can figure is that the 2 or 3 100+ runs I made over the weekend loosened up those plugs.
I took the wheel back out side and broke the bead, and sure enough there is no tube in there. Needless to say I'm a bit upset that the shop didn't put a tube in.

I'm going to go there tomorrow and insist that they put a tube in, but I'd like to know what I'm talking about, I think I read somewhere that DOT regs say every tubeless rim has to have that stamped in it, but now I can't find it...in my opinion it is really a dangerous mistake, and one I wouldn't expect a quality shop to make.

[ScottsXS]

im not sure if its a dot reg or not. but any reputable shop/cycle tire dealer should know the rims are different!! every tubeless rim i have seen says tubeless somewhere on the rim. i would take it and demand prob remadied

[crazy steve]

....I think I read somewhere that DOT regs say every tubeless rim has to have that stamped in it, but now I can't find it...

I think you're right, the wheel has to be identified as tubeless. But I've seen some that only had a small decal/sticker (which may or may not survive over time), so positive identification may not always be possible. Nowadays, all cast bike wheels are tubeless from what I've seen.

The interesting part is the later-model tubeless wheels I've dealt with all have a 'bead retaining lip' machined into them, and I was told that is a requirement for them to be 'tubeless' rated. But the identified-as-tubeless XS wheels I have have the same rim profile as the non-tubeless '78 wheels, lacking that lip. So either the regs changed somewhere, or Yamaha slipped one past the DOT. The only differences I can see between the two XS wheel types is the cast-in 'suitable for tubeless' identification and the drilled-out holes for the bead locks on the '78 rears; the later wheels have the bosses for the bead locks, they're just not drilled.

So you're probably dealing with a tech who's never even seen a 'tube type' cast wheel. And there's been plenty of reports here of guys running tubeless tires on the '78 wheels with no issues.

Truthfully, you're better off running them tubeless if you can; 'tube' street tires are probably non-existent these days, and putting a tube into a tubeless tire does reduce the speed/load rating of the tire.

'78E original owner

[psycoreefer]

Well, all I can say is that I would like to run tubeless, but then I have to modify the rim somehow to plug those two holes, and at this point its more trouble then its worth.

What bothers me is that the tech, knowingly or not, removed a tube when he removed the old tire, that should have been a hint, also two crazy rubber plugs in the rim should have been a second hint, and he didn't even ask, just went ahead and installed without the tube. I even told him when I bought the tire that I needed a tube also. Anyways, it could have been a major PITA if the thing had started leaking this bad during the rally, I mean it would go from 40psi to 0 on my gauge in less then a day, and being that it was leaky through the rim (bead lock holes) I'd have no way to fix it on the road. I just hope they make it right, if they do then I've got no beef with them, everyone makes mistakes....

My whole point was that if they want to argue I wanted to be able to say, well you should always check the rim, it should say "xxxx" if its tubeless, mine clearly doesn't!

[fredintoon]

Does anyone know if it is required that all tubeless rims have "tubeless" stamped in them, or is it possible to have a tubeless rim that doesn't specify that it is tubeless? Can anyone point me to relevant "law" or "regulations"?

The back story is that I had a new rear tire mounted about 5 months ago, upon returning home from the rally last weekend I noticed that it was down a little, I filled it and today its low again, so I dunk it in the bath tub and see that it is leaking where the bead locks used to be, they were replaced with some sort of rubber plug before I got the bike. And no, It didn't leak one bit before the rally, only thing I can figure is that the 2 or 3 100+ runs I made over the weekend loosened up those plugs.
I took the wheel back out side and broke the bead, and sure enough there is no tube in there. Needless to say I'm a bit upset that the shop didn't put a tube in.

I'm going to go there tomorrow and insist that they put a tube in, but I'd like to know what I'm talking about, I think I read somewhere that DOT regs say every tubeless rim has to have that stamped in it, but now I can't find it...in my opinion it is really a dangerous mistake, and one I wouldn't expect a quality shop to make.

Hi psyco,
AFAIK there's no legal requirement for a tubeless rim to say that it is one.
Like on every car in the last 40 years?
My Yamaha cast wheels all work with tubeless, even the ones that don't have the stamped-in legend.
Your rear must have originally run a tube tire because it has those bead lock holes in it.
That won't stop it running tubeless so long as those holes are plugged properly.
Do you know if the old tire had a tube in it or not?
You have no beef with the installer if they took off one tubeless and replaced it with a new one.

[psycoreefer]

I know there was tube in the old one, I installed that tire/tube myself. The only reason I didn't do this one my self is they offered "free" install. If there had been no tube in it before then I wouldn't have any problem, I'd just be going in to get a tube, and I'd be understanding of the mistake, however there was a tube, and some other holes in the rim. That should have set off some alarms and at least a question to clarify...

[crazy steve]

I know there was tube in the old one, I installed that tire/tube myself. The only reason I didn't do this one my self is they offered "free" install. If there had been no tube in it before then I wouldn't have any problem, I'd just be going in to get a tube, and I'd be understanding of the mistake, however there was a tube, and some other holes in the rim. That should have set off some alarms and at least a question to clarify...

Yeah, if there was a tube in there, somebody should have asked the question. Just goes to show how little knowledge about 'old' bikes is out there any more and how too few of the shops care about 'doing it right'.

I gave up on the dealers long ago, and have been extremely picky about any indys I go to, much preferring to do my own work so I know it's right, or at the very least I know who to blame...

'78E original owner

[dbeardslee]

The yamaha rims for XS's will all have tubeless in raised letters on the rim. There's a bunch of threads on the difference in the geometry between tube and tubeless rims. Your probably safer running tubeless on the rear, but I would never run tubeless on a tube-type rim on the front. If you hit a bump hard enough it has the potential to break the bead, and the tire can subsequently come off the rim where it can get bound up. Granted the chances of that happening are remote, but I wouldn't take the chance - you've only got two points of contact with the earth.

[psycoreefer]

well I just got back from the shop, they did the right thing, IMHO, I explained what happened and the guy said, well, lets fix it up right now, took the tire in the back, put a tube in it and re-balanced it, and gave it back, took about 15 minutes and didn't even try to charge me for the tube. Despite the initial screw up I'll give them my business again, because they realized they messed up and did what needed to be done to fix it.

[Guy_b_g]

I haven't been able to find anything official on the subject, but the consensus on the subject around the internet seems to be that you lower the speed rating on a tire by one speed rating value when you put a tube in a tubeless tire.

[Ken Talbot]

Glad that worked out for you. I was going to suggest replacing the leaky plugs with a couple of more valve stems. Seems about every time I want to check tire pressure, especially on the rear, I have to roll the bike two or three feet one way or the other. Might be convenient having a few more options.

[crazy steve]

I haven't been able to find anything official on the subject, but the consensus on the subject around the internet seems to be that you lower the speed rating on a tire by one speed rating value when you put a tube in a tubeless tire.

Yeah, I looked for 'official' confirmation on that too, with the same results. But I distinctly remember 'back in the day' (when there were still some running british wire-wheel-equipped sports cars around) that when fitting tubeless tires with tubes (because 'tube-type' tires for those were very hard to find here sometimes and/or expensive) that the maximum speed of the tire was reduced quite a bit. In those days tires weren't marked with speed ratings, but if I recall right, it knocked 15-20 mph off the rated top speed and slightly reduced the load rating. It was all about heat build-up of course.

These days, wire wheels are only found on bikes and lowriders, so it seems to have become a non-issue.

'78E original owner

[Winterhawk]

Glad that worked out for you. I was going to suggest replacing the leaky plugs with a couple of more valve stems. Seems about every time I want to check tire pressure, especially on the rear, I have to roll the bike two or three feet one way or the other. Might be convenient having a few more options.

I've ran several years with a tube less setup on my 1978. I used the flat rubber off of the valve stems with 2 bolts and washers. Worked great. I now use a tube with 2 450 rim locks on the back. Not sure about the tube less tires lowering the speed rating. Not sure why it would. I've only had mine up to 90mph like this. I think the speed rating is actually a heat rating anyway.