it's what's front that counts

[jamak]

This is kinda involved, so I hope you'll bear with me.
I just read Draketrumpets "Why do I wobble like a weeble?" from top to bottom, and there's a lot of good advice. But I'm wondering if there's more to my problem.
First, this is an '80G and I run a Windjammer fairing and stock bags. The bike has 49K on it, and at some point, the front end was swapped out. It has the air shocks on it, and it came off a bike w/o a fairing, because the headlight brackets are still attached to the tubes. It also has a fork brace, that looks to be good quality.
My first question is; could this have been on a bike with a single disc front end? The brakes don't have near as much stopping power as I would expect from dual discs, and I'm thinking maybe it has the wrong MC for this application? Is there a way to identify the right/wrong MC?
The big problem is similar to Drake's. Cornering over 40mph causes a over/under steering problem. When you try to take a line, the bike wants to fall farther into it than you want, and you have to straighten it out to correct it, but it wobbles and you can't find a happy medium. You wind up leaning in, then up, then back in, and over 60 it gets a bit too interesting. Switching lanes on the highway can bring on the start of a wobble that definitely get your attention.
The Clymers calls for a max. pressure of 30 lbs. in the front tire, I believe, and I've been running 28. The neck bearings have no notches or rough spots when you rotate it w/o the wheel on it. It has a 'sweet spot' from center to left and right of a couple inches, where it moves more easily than turning to the stops. There's no front-to-back play when you grab the forks and move them. The tire is an older Dunlop, but it's not cupped, tho it could stand replacing. The rear tire ditto. If anything, the steering head feels a bit too tight. The really weird thing is, it seems to get tighter after you've been riding for 50-60 miles.Just trying to move the bars back and forth takes some effort.
One of my riding partners has been a professional Harley wrench for many years, and is very knowledgeable. He thinks it's the tire, or maybe the wheel bearings. He says the neck bearings have that feel because of the bike tracking in that spot for so many years, and it's not the problem.
I've changed the fork oil, adjusted the fork pressure to 15 lbs., checked over all the nuts and bolts. The neck bearings don't seem to be bogus, other than the sweet spot. My next move would be a tire up front, and probably the rear, because I know that can affect handling. If that doesn't cure it, the only other thing I can think of is aligning the wheels. The front rim looks undamaged, and appears true, but until I put it on a stand, I won't know.
All of that said, anything that stands out as something particular to this bike, or the set-up I'm using? Could the weight of the fairing require stiffer springs?
It's gotten to where it's no fun,and a little scary riding this puppy.
Thanks.

[DGXSER]

The bike has 49K on it, and at some point, the front end was swapped out. It has the air shocks on it, and it came off a bike w/o a fairing, because the headlight brackets are still attached to the tubes. It also has a fork brace, that looks to be good quality.

Not necessarily so, the stock forks on an 80 have air forks. Not alot of these bikes had factory fairings, and it is VERY common to leave those brackets in place sinc eit involves removing the top triple tree or the forks altogether to get them off.

My first question is; could this have been on a bike with a single disc front end? The brakes don't have near as much stopping power as I would expect from dual discs, and I'm thinking maybe it has the wrong MC for this application? Is there a way to identify the right/wrong MC?

Fact is, these bikes are under braked for as heavy as they are. The front MC is factory a Nissin 11/16", here is a picture or three

The big problem is similar to Drake's. Cornering over 40mph causes a over/under steering problem. When you try to take a line, the bike wants to fall farther into it than you want, and you have to straighten it out to correct it, but it wobbles and you can't find a happy medium. You wind up leaning in, then up, then back in, and over 60 it gets a bit too interesting. Switching lanes on the highway can bring on the start of a wobble that definitely get your attention.
The Clymers calls for a max. pressure of 30 lbs. in the front tire, I believe, and I've been running 28. The neck bearings have no notches or rough spots when you rotate it w/o the wheel on it. It has a 'sweet spot' from center to left and right of a couple inches, where it moves more easily than turning to the stops. There's no front-to-back play when you grab the forks and move them. The tire is an older Dunlop, but it's not cupped, tho it could stand replacing. The rear tire ditto. If anything, the steering head feels a bit too tight. The really weird thing is, it seems to get tighter after you've been riding for 50-60 miles.Just trying to move the bars back and forth takes some effort.
One of my riding partners has been a professional Harley wrench for many years, and is very knowledgeable. He thinks it's the tire, or maybe the wheel bearings. He says the neck bearings have that feel because of the bike tracking in that spot for so many years, and it's not the problem.
I've changed the fork oil, adjusted the fork pressure to 15 lbs., checked over all the nuts and bolts. The neck bearings don't seem to be bogus, other than the sweet spot. My next move would be a tire up front, and probably the rear, because I know that can affect handling. If that doesn't cure it, the only other thing I can think of is aligning the wheels. The front rim looks undamaged, and appears true, but until I put it on a stand, I won't know.
All of that said, anything that stands out as something particular to this bike, or the set-up I'm using? Could the weight of the fairing require stiffer springs?
It's gotten to where it's no fun,and a little scary riding this puppy.
Thanks.

If it were mine, I'd definitely pull the triple trees off and clean and regrease the steering head bearings. I would also recommend new tires. To much is riding on them to use old or questionable ones.

[b.walker5]

JAT, but it may not be the front end causing your problem. Check the swing arm bushes, and rear wheel bearings. With the back wheel off the ground grab your rear wheel and push from side to side. Any movement here could translate to a wobble on the road.

[webbcraft2150]

I run an 80g with the full factory "tour pack". First I would see what the max tire pressure is on the the tire itself, the owners manual gives tire pressure specs for OEM tires and yours may be different. My Elite III's show a max of 44lbs, I run 40 in them. Playing with fork air pressure is easy and free, just be very careful filling them as they take very little volume and its easy to over pressurize them and blow a seal. I use a small tire pump or my compressor regulated down to 25psi. I believe the max pressure is around 36psi. I have dialed mine in at 7psi and use 15w fork oil. Still have stock fork springs and a Tkat brace. A full dresser isn't going to be very "flickable" but it still should hold its line in a turn. I am comfortable on most runs/curves I encounter and have no problem pulling a sweeper at speed with the pegs warning me( or the wife) when nuff is nuff. Pulling the steering head is not a high tech job and could shed some real light on some of your problems. You might get away with a good cleaning and re-grease. Changing the bearings is a bit tougher. HOW you approach that line and hold it is pilot driven. If you chop the throttle thru the turn, things will wobble. The brakes on these rigs are adequate at best but stainless steel lines help alot. Did you check to see if the pads were glazed up? How old is the fluid? Old tires suck and can be dangerous so put them high on your list. Figuring out you handling problems is a multistep approach with each thing you do contributing a better handling bike. Even with low miles, the bike is still old and things have to be tweaked/cleaned/adjusted/replaced to get things back like they were.

[thewiz]

agree with both of the other posters ...

I also have a G and if you grab the front brake too hard, it will pitch you over the bars ... no Windjammer but it wouldn't make all that much diff. if there was one on there ... it would still stop quick. Stainless lines and a good bleed are probably the reason why.

Sounds like two issues here .. brakes and wobble. They may or may not be related.

I might take it for a ride and do some heavy front braking and jump off and feel the rotors .. looking for a cool side. Maybe one caliper is non operable .. I've seen it a lot in the past.

If you can, pull the front wheel and take it to your tire balance shop and watch it spin ... if the wheel is bent or out of true or the tire has a high spot, it'll be pretty easy to spot with the wheel in a balancing machine. My two cents.

[DiverRay]

My thoughts on the problem:
1. TIRES!!! If the tires are over 5 years old, they are dangerous!
2. Steering stem bearings do NOT get tight as you ride! If they try to stay in one place only, REPLACE THEM. A dremmel with a cut off wheel helps, and for the $35 or so they cost, it's well worth the handling improvement.
3. Brakes... Stainless lines are like putting a power brake unit on the bike. Worth every penny of cost. Watch your rubber lines expand as you put on the brakes. Your brake force is going into the lines, not the pads.
4. Check and adjust if needed the swing arm bearings. They should be sealed, so you can't really grease them. if they feel loose, adjust per the manual and the rear end should tighten up.

[Montreux_Blue]

3. Brakes... Stainless lines are like putting a power brake unit on the bike. Worth every penny of cost. Watch your rubber lines expand as you put on the brakes. Your brake force is going into the lines, not the pads.

3.5 Rebuilding the stock front master increases stopping power considerably! I thought my front brakes sucked until I rebuilt the whole system and the master rebuild made the biggest difference... even over the stainless lines.

[crazy steve]

I'd also take a look to see if when they swapped forks, that all the parts match. If they put special fork tubes on standard trees (or vice versa), that can effect handling. And I'll ditto the tire pressure; 28 is too low and will cause strange handling. Do at least 38, and 40 would be better. Modern tires are designed for those pressures.

'78E original owner

[jamak]

it's what up front that counts

I'm getting mixed opinions on the braking capabilities, but roughing up the pads and a good bleed are a quick and easy start. I'd have to check the MC for being correct.
As for cleaning/regreasing the neck bearings. Can I get away with some brakeclean and drying thoroughly with a clean rag before regreasing? I don't have a compressor, and I'm really doing the shade tree number on tools and facilities.I'm concerned I won't get 'em clean enough or remove the residue well enough using this method. I'd be using Bel-Ray waterproof grease, is that up to this job?
The rear swing arm is another good point to check, and I know I've got to spring for tires ASAP.
Having to do this on a limited budget is the biggest problem. If I had my druthers, I'd replace the neck bearings, brake pads and put new sneakers on it. As it is, I'm going for the max with the minimum. I really appreciate all you guys trying to help me with it.
BTW, my buddy was as convinced as I was that just using Permatex for the valve cover wasn't going to cut it. I'm glad I had faith in you guys-and 900 miles later, no leaks. Hey, he's a Harley guy. He's the first to admit he knows squat about these bikes.

[motoman]

Pertaining to your tire issue other than sounds like it needs replacing, size DOES make a difference on the front as to its handleing in corners. Since having mine from its conception in 81(cept for a 14yr. lapse selling and getting it back) I've run bout every tire brand and combination that you could imagine. One I had not run on the front was a MetzlerME33. Ran two of those on the front with a rear Metz and Dunlop respectively. These ole scoots don't seem to mind different brands on either end like my newer ST does. The problem with the front that you describe in corners is EXACTLY what I had created by running one size smaller (3.25x19)ME 33 on the front. Less countersteer pressure but line varied either dropping in too far then out too far. No problem with using the ME33 as it stuck like glue in raining corners and wore VERY nice and even. I am convinced the smaller size got overloaded on the front in corners and some sidewall over stress resulted. All this stated is running 42psi front and rear. When wore down, changed to proper size reccomended and countersteering in corners required a bit more pressure but VERY predictable and held a constant non changing line. Response was a bit slower but way more stable. As for the fairing mount, they go on and off WITHOUT removing any front end pieces period. As you can see in my sig. the bike is a FACTORY dresser as that was the ONLY way the Standard was sold in 81. It was sold as the Venturer 1100. Tire air pressure can and WILL affect handleing, specially pushing a bit in corners. Can tell you that the pressure your running is WAY to low!.....on both ends. Most any brand choice out there unless it is a sx ply rated will show a reccomended max. pressure of 42-44psi depending on brand. If you want good overall wear and good overall handleing, run the 42psi on both ends! If your wanting a more "cushy" ride, jump on a Wing. These bikes do NOT have compression dampening on the rear stock shocks. I definitely can tell the difference when I jump from the gas mono-shocked Honda ST to my Venturer as to ride difference, aside from no comparison handleing differences. Also, since being a G, it came stock with the front air forks same as my H. For comparison, my front forks are all original including springs, using 15w Silcolene fork oil with 9psi in forks single-up riding and at times can be a bit stiff in the front, but overall dampening is bout as good as it gets. Hope some of this may help with your issue.

[Rasputin]

I am all for the neck bearings being wrong. If it is not that it is either the swingarm bearings or the axle settings (front or rear) being wrong. I have had an ill handling machine that i wondered what was going on and it was the steering neck every time. They do not need much of an excuse to make a bike act up!

[b.walker5]

When checking the swingarm bearings also look at the pins. It's probably not common, and I would hope that it's not, but the reason I say "check the swingarm" is because 11 years ago when I got my bike, I had just stepped up from an XS750-2D that handled like a rocket on rails. When I got on the 11, I thought OMG, what have I done, this thing handles like a bag full of busted arseholes It was like a wallowing fishing boat, and would not corner. I actually thought I should've bought a Harley!! I had ridden plenty and couldnt remember one as bad as the 11.

I put up with it for a while, until I had the opportunity to ride another SG. One that handled, and didnt need all the road to get round corners.

I pulled the front end out and replaced the steering bearings, rebuilt the brakes, put new tyres on etc,..



... and I also pulled the back end out and replaced the swing arm bearings, and what i found was that at some point in it's past the bearing rollers had rusted and seized, and were rotating on the pins. There was significant wear on the pins and no amount of tightening them was going to make any difference. Once the bearings and pins were replaced, along with the new tyres and front end rebuild it was like riding a new bike, and all thoughts of owning a Harley faded into insignificance.

I kept those pins for years, as they were handy as bearing drifts, and punches etc, but as usual when looking for them to take a photo to show you I coundn't find them. The best I could do was a quick cad sketch of what they looked like for your reference.



The wear was about a third of the circumference and approx 2mm deep at the deepest point.

The bearing cups were shagged as well, as you would expect, with each roller carving it's own little groove to live in.

I hope that's useful info for you..

[draketrumpet]

Well, I just pulled my front end off tonight. tomorrow I'll get to those steering bearings and see if they need replacing or regreasing and adjustment. I guess once I am done up there, it's on to the rear end to thoroughly investigate everything there.

Is there a simple way to check my wheel while I've got it off? Would taping something like a pencil up next to it be accurate enough or do I need to take it to the shop since I don't have a special measuring magic misty thingy ?

[b.walker5]

I guess if you could set up a couple of level supports/vee blocks, one either side of the wheel, you could spin it on the axle with a home made dial guage (pencil, 2x1 and duct tape ) mounted beside it, you could probably get close. You would need to be absolutely certain that the axle is held sturdy and level. Some guys balance their tyres this way and seem to have good success. Someone else will chime in with the method, i'm sure.

[jamak]

it's what up front that counts

Thanks for the many and varied responses men. A closer inspection showed the max pressure on both Dunlops is 41 psi, so I was running WAY low up front @ 28psi and not as bad rear @35. That alone, is enough to cause a lot of the problems I've been having. I'll run 38 each and see the result.
The rear swing arm had no side-to-side play, and I twisted it and shook it back and forth as well-seems nice and tight. Found the lower triple tree pinch bolts on one side needing a little tightening, and the same on the fork brace, but nothing drastic in either case.
Fresh, well measured fluid in the forks, and increased psi should bring some improvement, but tires are a must do. Regarding that, have you guys had the same experience as the gentlemen who ran a size smaller tire with bad results? It makes sense, but still wondered if this was universal pitfall.
Wanna laugh at my expense? I've got one coming for snapping not one, but both air fork nipples, where the cap screws on? Yep, wanted a matching pair!
I just tightened 'em down a bit too much and snapped off the top portion inside the cap head. They weren't holding air anyway, but now look like crap, and I'm concerning about contaminants getting in the forks. The valve core stem is still in them, but I'll have to dig up some new ones.
But screw ups aside, all your advice and input is being put to use as best I can. Thanks again.