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Cam chain hell, or why is my brother in law still breathing

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  • Cam chain hell, or why is my brother in law still breathing

    Had 37,900 on the clock, but more importantly the cam tensioner was all the way in, no more adjustment. Bike is running fine. From Zanotti's I had ordered a cam chain with master link ($38?), 2 cam cover gaskets in case one ripped, and 2 half moons.

    Figured I would do this twice, and wanted to be prepared. Didn't need the second gasket though. SWMBO brother offered to help, he had so many nice tools I could not say no. Besides he is a
    maintenance mechanic / pipe fitter / tinsmith, 30 years of practice...

    July 26

    When I took the cam cover off and turned the engine by hand, the chain would snap as it crossed over the bridge. I didn't measure the old chain, but laid it out next to the new one and it was much longer, maybe 2 or 3 links longer IIRC.

    I started with Jurek's tip. The original cam chain had no master link, so I made one by grinding one of the link pins flat, punched it out and hooked the new chain to the old. Put a string on the ends and I hand turned the engine, keeping the chain on the sprockets, and warned my brother in law to HANG ON to the end coming out. Suddenly I could not turn the engine, it was jammed. I asked him where the end of the chain was? Yup, he dropped the old chain and string back into the crank case. Under the Hy-Vo, balled up under the crank....

    After several hours of fishing for the chain, we removed the oil filter housing, oil pan, AND oil pump trying to fish the chain out the bottom, I finally gave up and removed the cams and head. Got the old chain (still attached to the new chain) out FINALLY. Thinking I needed parts quickly, I phone ordered a head gasket ($81), oil pan gasket ($9), cam tensioner gasket ($2) from a local Yamaha dealer - Race's, Bradford - full retail, durn it. Took all the lower parts to the parts cleaner tub, then wrapped them in oil
    damp rags, wrapped the engine in two garbage bags, went on vacation for a week. Had to wait for a week the gaskets anyway.

    Came back, spent hours after work carefully scraping old gasket material off the oil pan, valve cover, head and block. I used a light application of crocus cloth to clean the head gasket area. There was some pitting near the exhaust side, but not in any critical areas. I spent hours carefully scraping carbon off the piston crowns, there was LOTS, till I could read the numbers. I placed the head upside down and packed the combustion chamber
    with rags, then dribbled some grocery store ammonia onto the rags, enough to wet them, then I covered the rags with a block of wood to keep the fumes to a minimum. Two days later I wiped most of the carbon out with a rag. Ammonia turns rock-hard carbon deposits into black mud. (DO NOT do this to the pistons, unless you are doing a full rebuild, with cylinder hone.) The
    recesses in the combustion chamber held on to a little carbon, so I
    carefully scraped that out. I left the valves in the head, but had taken the lifters off when I originally took the head out.

    Then my brother in law was back on day shift, so he came by after work to help assemble. I wanted HIM under the bike getting dripped on when he put the oil pump and oil pan back in. I also needed him to help with placing the head on the studs. I followed the Clymers manual exactly. First I routed the new chain around the crank and in the chain guide. THEN I TIED IT TO THE
    FRAME. Priming the oil pump was easy. I poured oil in, my brother in law turned the gear till oil came out the other end. Then just bolted in. Oil pan was easy also. Placed the head gasket and head. I torqued the head bolts carefully, positioned and torqued the cams carefully. I used assembly oil on all the contact areas. It only took two tries to get the cams timed
    precisely. Master link for the cam chain was easy. I held a block of steel, brother in law punched the link pins then peened them over. Yeah, I checked. Put the cam cover on, verified "T" was when #1 piston was at TDC. Tensioner in. Put the carbs back on, positioned the gas tank, and let some gas in the carbs. Used
    the kick starter a couple of times to circulate oil. Hooked up the battery, cranked it once and it started! I CAN"T BELIEVE IT. Got oil pressure and everything. Left the muffler off knowing I was going to blow lots of carbon dust out, and I didn't want it to clog the baffles. Ran fine! Nice sound by the way, 4-1 MAC with no muffler. Shut it down after a moment, it WAS loud.

    Put the fairing on, put the tank on, hooked the lines up. Put the seat on, sides on, filters on, pushed the button, nothing!!!. Got lights, signal, horn. Not cranking. So off comes the fairing, off comes the seat, off comes the tank, off come the filters. Got my new (used) multimeter and traced everything I could identify. Found NOTHING wrong. Tried the starter button and it started! OK, put it all back together, watching in case I was hitting a wire or something, and yup, NO STARTER!!! Lights, horn, signals,
    no crank.

    Found how the starter button works. Read Mike Hart's article about a bike that won't crank. Tested the connector back by the starter relay that was supposed to close the circuit when the starter button was pressed. Nothing. I still had a Tkat starter button in the desk drawer, and since the old one was held in by tape, and it was not working (arced up pretty good), figured
    I might as well replace it. MY STOOPID brother in law wanted to replace the button. (I have GOT to cut his hands off) Still nothing!! The starter relay would not kick. I could spin the starter by crossing the terminals. But the relay itself would not work when the button was pushed. Upon close inspection again with my new multimeter, my BRAIN DEAD brother in law had forced the button in, the switch came apart, and he put the back plate (yeah, the one that CONTACTS the starter button) in backwards. After THAT was fixed, I had continuity to everything, that starter relay would NOT work. Ordered one from Zanotti's, ($74.02 / $51.80 my price, not in stock, 6 days delivery).

    August 17
    I still had this nagging doubt that the starter relay was not the problem. Yesterday, at my request (pleading) my wonderful son in law, who is an electrical and building contractor, came over and started retesting to either prove me correct or disprove me that the starter relay was at fault. He did all his testing and verified the relay was not working. Then he looked closely at it, and saw parts of a washer corroded on the one terminal. He cleaned it, assembled the terminals and HOLY COW IT WORKS!!!! I started it several times, it STILL works!!! Put all those removable parts back on AGAIN. Pushed the button, it WORKED! It's alive!! AND, it is running horribly! Missfire, backfire, stalling, hard re-starting, won't idle...

    BUT

    I knew exactly what the problem was. As the sun was setting on yet another XS-less day, I pulled on one of the pickup coil wires, got the hourglass shape. AHA! My wonderful son in law tested continuity on all the wires, and that one wire was bad. He spliced / soldered, connecting to a part of the old wire that does not flex. I hit the starter, it started immediately, backfired once, settled into a good idle. I blipped the throttle a few times, no problems. One weird thing, the right handle bar vibrates a little
    at idle, touching with a finger stops it. Went to fill-up, ran
    TERRIFICALLY! New power, got a marvelous surge at about 3750RPM and another at 5800RPM, just like a turbo kicking in. No oil leaks, nice sounding exhaust. It is POWERFUL, it is sm-o-o-ooth, it is fast, it is like a new bike all over again. Got 100 miles on it already and I worked all day yesterday. I love that bike. That FZ1 is just going to have to wait. This is too much fun! IT'S ALIVE!!!
    Life is good again.

    What I did do:
    Followed the Clymers manual.
    Cleaned LOTS of carbon from the combustion chamber and pistons
    measured the cams - still in original spec.
    Intakes #2-#3 1.449", #1-#4 1.448"
    Exh - #2-#3 1.429", #1-#4 1.428"
    measured the lifter gaps - intakes .006-.007", exh .008-.009"
    cleaned all gasket surfaces well.
    used a good torque wrench - the two squeak rule is OK for VW's, but not MY bike.
    used assembly grease
    Fixed one of the pickup coil wires.
    Cancelled my starter relay order at Zanotti's
    Cleaned some of the dirt off of most of the engine parts
    showed extraordinary patience with my brother in law.

    What I did not do:
    Shine and polish everything I took off the engine - good opportunity, but I wanted to RIDE...
    Touch the valves in any way, except to remove the lifters while the head was off.
    Touch the carbs.
    Check the HY-Vo for stretch (forgot)
    Kill my brother in law
    Replace the cam chain gasket in the head gasket (not sure I was supposed to)
    Compression test (yet)
    Fix the other coil pickup wire (yet)
    Replace the fork seals (yet)
    Replace my fork springs with my new Progressive fork springs (yet) Yeah, I know, but I am RIDING....

    My Thanks to:
    Gary "66" and Dave "Highlander" for their encouragement
    Brent from 'Hot-lanta' for bringing a piece of coil pickup wire for everyone at XS East 2003
    Jurek - very good tip, but....
    Mike Hart for the 'won't crank" tip
    Mitch for telling me to just do it (oil pump)
    All y'all for this forum, and anyone in particular who I missed
    My son in law
    Yamaha, for the on-line parts fiche
    My wife, for getting all the brains in her family.
    Marty in NW PA
    Gone - 1978E - one of the first XS11 made
    Gone - 2007A FJR - the only year of Dark Red Metallic
    This IS my happy face.

  • #2
    So...why do you continue to let your "stooooopid" brother-in-law help you with your bike? Sorry, just had to ask! :-)
    Skids (Sid Hansen)

    Down to one 1978 E. Stock air box with K&N filter, 81H pipes and carbs, 8500 feet elevation.

    Comment


    • #3
      OK, this is evil, but...
      maybe...
      you could...
      perhaps...
      Get him a project XS11 to work on, so he wont bother with yours too.

      The downside is... expect phonecalls after midnight (Why cant I attach the muffler thingie to the camsprocketpumplightbulb so my black squidgie crudoil dripping thingie would turn?)

      Or you could just kill him LOL

      LP
      If it doesn't have an engine, it's not a sport, it's only a game.
      (stole that one from I-dont-know-who)

      Comment


      • #4
        Hey Marty,

        Great job!!!! But now it's safe to tell you, that you didn't have to pull the head. IF you had just pulled both cams, the valves would have all retracted into the head, none would have been sticking out since there weren't any cam lobes pushing against them, and you could have turned the crank over to your heart's content to get the chain loose! Then all you would have needed to do was rerun the chain, then align the crank at TDC with the proper timing mark, then put the cams back in and finish it that way. Could have saved you the cost of a head gasket!? Oh well, you'll know for the "NEXT TIME"!!

        BTW, had you done a compression test before the tear down? Would be interesting to compare. I've heard that removing lots of carbon from the combustion chamber can lower the compression because you have more room to compress the air/gas vs. before when there was carbon buildup. But then again, with the buildup, not as much air/fuel would have been sucked into the chamber to begin with, so might be an old mechanic's tale!?!? Anyway, congrats, and ride on!!!!!!!

        T.C.
        T. C. Gresham
        81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
        79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
        History shows again and again,
        How nature points out the folly of men!

        Comment


        • #5
          SWMBO re-e-eally appreciates it when I treat him like family.....

          But now that it RUNS he can dream of working on it, he'll never catch me.
          Marty in NW PA
          Gone - 1978E - one of the first XS11 made
          Gone - 2007A FJR - the only year of Dark Red Metallic
          This IS my happy face.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hey TC!
            Yeah, that chain was JAMMED under the Hy-Vo and crank. Could not turn the engine even after the head was off. Had to fish it out.

            I don't have before and after compression readings. I had that same thought while I scraped all that carbon off. What is this doing to the compression? My thoughts are that while I lost some compression, I have more volume now, and the semi-hemi combustion chamber is now closer to the original design, meaning I get better swirl, so all in all I know I lost compression, but I have gained in combustion chamber volume and burn efficiency. My estimate is I gained 5-6% (maybe a little more?) in volume.

            My bike ran fine before, but there are subtle differences now. It is even smoother than before, seems to go up the RPM much easier, if that makes sense. It pulls even better from lower RPM. The throttle response is quicker. All these little things are adding up and make it that much better.
            Marty in NW PA
            Gone - 1978E - one of the first XS11 made
            Gone - 2007A FJR - the only year of Dark Red Metallic
            This IS my happy face.

            Comment


            • #7
              Marty A

              Good work.... I am happy that everything turned out for the best.
              I have a couple of Cam questions.

              Can you hook and fish out the cam chain with the motor still in the frame?
              Is there not a lot of stuff in the way? Wiring harness? Top of the frame?

              Can you change the cam chain tensioner (install a new one) from the front and not from the top? Is the opening the tensioner goes in big enough to slip a new open in?

              The cam chain tensioner on my bike is not keeping the cam chain tight.

              TC

              You always make it all sound so easily!
              Tom
              2004 FJR1300abs 311,000 kilometers and counting
              gone,but not forgotten 1978 XS11E

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Huron52
                Can you change the cam chain tensioner (install a new one) from the front and not from the top? Is the opening the tensioner goes in big enough to slip a new open in?

                The cam chain tensioner on my bike is not keeping the cam chain tight.
                Not a problem Tom. Set your timing marks as if you were adjusting the slack in the chain, unbolt the adjuster, clean the mating surfaces, install with a new gasket and you're good to go. Probably a good time to remove the plug in the end and reseal with RTV or something similar.

                Brian
                Brian
                1978E Midlife Crisis - A work in progress
                1984 Kawasaki 550 Ltd - Gone, but not forgotten

                A married man should forget his mistakes. There's no use in two people
                remembering the same thing!

                Comment


                • #9
                  The book says split the cases to replace the cam chain. Look at the tips section here, Jurek has a good way to do it without removing anything other than the cam cover.

                  There was no master link in my old chain, but I just hit one of the link pins with a hand grinder and punched it out. TIE BOTH ENDS of the chain up first AND DO NOT ASK MY BROTHER IN LAW FOR HELP. The genuine chain I ordered from Zanotti's had a master link.

                  When mine dropped down, it wrapped around the crank and under the Hy-Vo, doubled up in places. It did NOT want to fish out. I could catch it from the top with a coat hanger, but there is little room around the cam chain guide. I could see it down there, hook it, but could not remove it, it was so tangled. With the tank off, you can part the wiring and look right down there. The frame was not in the way. I could get to a piece of it through the oil pan by removing the oil pump, but it was just too stuck. With the head off I could part the chain guide a little more and was able to poke at the chain from the top and work it out the bottom.

                  The tensioner on the front of the engine is spring loaded and presses into a chain guide, it does not actually touch the chain. No way to feed a chain through there. If you are talking about the chain guide, it is bolted to the case below the jugs, and guides the chain around the crank shaft sprocket, with two arms that come up to guide the chain to the outside of the cam sprockets. The chain runs along this on the inside of the guide. So installing a new chain guide would require removing the cylinders. But as far as I know the chain guide usually does not wear out to the point that it needs replaced. At least I don't recall anyone mentioning it.

                  If you are sure the tensioner is not keeping enough tension on the chain, replace the chain, not the tensioner. You can tell if the tensioner is at the end of it's travel. Do the tensioner adjustment according to the manual, then unbolt it. If there is tension on it as you unbolt it and it springs out at you, it is still working. If it just comes off with no fanfare, it is at the end of adjustment and the chain needs replaced.

                  All of this is in the Clymers manual. Yeah, it was easy, in retrospect. Isn't everything?

                  Did I answer your questions?
                  Marty in NW PA
                  Gone - 1978E - one of the first XS11 made
                  Gone - 2007A FJR - the only year of Dark Red Metallic
                  This IS my happy face.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    My DID chain was in one piece, but since I had the engine apart anyway, I changed it. The old one was 1mm longer. Saved it just in case.

                    LP
                    If it doesn't have an engine, it's not a sport, it's only a game.
                    (stole that one from I-dont-know-who)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Only 1 mm longer??? That seems like a very small amount.

                      Originally posted by strom
                      My DID chain was in one piece, but since I had the engine apart anyway, I changed it. The old one was 1mm longer. Saved it just in case.

                      LP
                      Skids (Sid Hansen)

                      Down to one 1978 E. Stock air box with K&N filter, 81H pipes and carbs, 8500 feet elevation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Replacement time is at a few mm... I had the engine apart and a new chain anyway, so...
                        But the primary chain was almost an inch longer LOL

                        LP
                        If it doesn't have an engine, it's not a sport, it's only a game.
                        (stole that one from I-dont-know-who)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          thanks for answering some of my questions....

                          When adjusting the cam chain tensioner the motor will be alot quieter. But it will not stay quiet. In a matter of time it will get a noise that sounds like a diesel motor. This happens only at an idle.

                          This problem appear two weekends ago. I stopped at a gas station to fill up. It was quiet before pulling in .... but after starting it up it sounded really noisy.

                          Not being real sure of the problem I took it in to the semi local bike shop. I had them check and adjust valves and adjust the cam chain.

                          Valves checked out OK... They adjusted the cam chain and it quieted down. They had it one afternoon and I didn't get around to picking it up until the next day. They found that the noise had come back after being quiet the day before. They readjusted it again and it quieten down.

                          They suggested the cam chain tensioner was the problem ... not the lack of adjustment in the chain.

                          After riding it this weekend I have found the noise is back.

                          Could it be possible that the bolt is not holding to the adjuster and allowing it to move? Could this be due to the bolt marking the shaft and not allowing to hold tight?

                          If this being the case a new tensioner may fix the noise.

                          Any comments?

                          Tom
                          2004 FJR1300abs 311,000 kilometers and counting
                          gone,but not forgotten 1978 XS11E

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Forgot to ask this before hitting the send key.

                            Does the tensioner push OR pull to make the chain tighter?

                            Could the spring inside the tensioner be broke?

                            Tom
                            2004 FJR1300abs 311,000 kilometers and counting
                            gone,but not forgotten 1978 XS11E

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It pushes.

                              Yes, I thought of that as one way the tensioner won't work, that is the spring is broken. Easy to test, just take it off. Take it off now. If it is broken, you might have saved the engine. That chain could jump any time. If the spring is not broken, something else is wrong.

                              Another thing that might cause the tensioner to not work is if some time ago someone reefed on the little bolt that holds the spring loaded shaft, which caused dings or dents in the shaft, which would restrict it from moving.

                              DO this. It will only take a few minutes:

                              Remove the left side engine cover, turn the engine with a wrench to the "C" mark on the timing plate.

                              Loosen the locknut and the retaining bolt on the tensioner, and remove the tensioner. Push in the shaft, there should be tension, and it should move freely. If there is resistance to your pushing the shaft in, then the spring is working. If the shaft has no resistance to your pushing it in by hand, the spring is gone.

                              If the spring is working, see if there are spots where the shaft hangs. Take it apart and check for dings on the shaft, and polish them off. After it moves freely in and out, push the shaft all the way in. Tighten the bolt -EASY-, only 4.3 ft-lb of torque. Then tighten the locknut - EASY - to 6 lb-ft. Then bolt the tensioner into position on the front of the engine.

                              Now loosen the locknut, then loosen the retaining bolt. You should hear an audible click. That is the spring pushing the tensioner shaft against the chain guide. It will go in as far as the chain guide lets it. Or it will go in as far as it can travel, and not come in contact with the chain guide.

                              Unbolt the tensioner again. If it pushes as you loosen the the mounting bolts, then it is working. If it just falls out, that means the cam chain is too loose, and the tensioner is not pushing hard enough against the chain guide to take up the slack. If that is the case, it might have jumped a tooth on one of the cams, which might be the source of the noise?

                              Assuming the cam chain is OK, enough tension, still some adjustment left, then that noise is another issue. Are you getting pre-ignition? Have you checked your timing? Bad gas, something like that?

                              I have heard hydraulic valves rattle when they are getting bad, particularly on high mileage engines. Ours are solid.
                              Marty in NW PA
                              Gone - 1978E - one of the first XS11 made
                              Gone - 2007A FJR - the only year of Dark Red Metallic
                              This IS my happy face.

                              Comment

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