idle mixture problem / colortune issue ? / Going insane ?

[TDodge7]

I've changed them so many times I don't know anymore . It's still not set up right so today I'll go ahead and screw them all in and count it off . Maybe even journal what settings I get for each turn .

[Larrym]

No Joy on the Burn??

TDodge7,

Thanks for the artwork. I know what you mean about hard to get good pics of something close up: Gotta have a Macro function on the camera or it's a waste of effort.

If you swear that you've got the right pilot air/fuel jets, (the ones on the left side of the previous posted pic), then I gotta believe you:



Just had to point out that the same number jet, 42.5, comes in two different designs. The threads/posts where the owners were pulling their hair out and were at wit's end cause they'd tried everything was very similar. Tweaking till the cows came home everyday and nothing in between fouled and lean IIRC.

Those owners who just set the idle mixture by ear and walk away plus those who use the colortune (Some love this gadget while others...meh the thingy...) eventually get around to looking at their plugs. I guess that more often than not they don't see anything which would make them say, "Hey!! This is whack!!". But that's not you or your bike.

There is obviously some other factor in the mix here. The range of idle air/fuel adjustment at the screws themselves is totally related to the orifices/jets these screws are "metering". (That and the other related carb components...) If there really is no happy medium between the two lean/rich extremes that you can achieve by tweaking the idle mixture screws then that is as they say, "Is That."

I'd look into re-examining/changing/re-sizing those parts that the screws are affecting.

Which way to re-size? BY how Much??? Etc, etc, etc??

I don't know. My bike is totally stock. Can't speak from direct experience so I'll bow out and make room for those that do.

HTH

[Larrym]

A Funny Thing...

TDodge7.

Just thought I'd add something here for you benefit and any others: You're in a "non-positive result action loop".

That's the technical term for it from someone who's been educated/trained/experienced in the fields of Analytical Troubleshooting/Failure Analysis. Your situation is just like Curly Howard's in the film short, "Disorder In The Court".

He did exactly as he was supposed to do, when he was supposed to do it, and the way he was told to do it. Yet no matter how many times he went through the action chain, he didn't achieve the results the actions were supposedly designed to achieve. Not just a no-win scenario where a positive outcome was not possible. But a loop that reset him back to the beginning each time. That's how to identify that the loop exists.

The Stooges were geniuses cause they knew that we learn not by doing things right but rather by seeing someone else do things the wrong way. Funny and educational at the same time.

Unless it's you who ends up in circles, chasing your own tail.

My suggestion: introduce a change in the parts you're working with.

[Crazcnuk]

Just my 2 cents:

1st, air cooled engines always run rich at idle. This is to provide some extra cooling when not moving, and also because, for the most part, no one cares if it's rich at idle, your not supposed to idle very long.

2nd. If you have your floats lowered by 2mm from the stock position and your still too rich (see above) I would either try new needles and emulsion tubes, as you may have wear in there that can't be easily seen by the naked eye, or drop the needles 1 notch (if you have adjustable ones, if not use the washer trick) then readjust the float height to compensate for what should be a slightly lean condition.

3rd by 'white' do you mean 'clean' or do you mean scorched? A clean white is fine. It can take a hundred miles, or more, before plugs start to get a nice color on them. A too-lean white plug isn't just white, it's baked white, or glazed looking because the combustion chamber is so hot it bakes the porcelain.

[Larrym]

Half-Baked???!

Another thing BTW:

That "Troubleshooting" training was in college. Thing is that the professors didn't just sit in a room and pull techniques/methods outta the air.

They followed guys like you around, Craz. Geeky guys asking you questions all the time about what you're doing and why. Then they compiled the results into a college course.

Much better IMO to eliminate the middle men (professors...)and get it directly from the source.


Good one, Craz:

Baked on white or just clean white?

A very important difference between the two.

[TDodge7]

Well I didn't get a chance to mess with the tuning today , instead I ended up helping a friend with his truck (it's still going on but I'm taking a break) . Anyway I borrowed a camera and pulled the two outer plugs , hope this shows it well enough to describe the white that I'm getting . If I can't get this then I may just end up color tuning it slightly richer and going with it .






oddly enough they look like they're cleaning up to a lean condition , but the bike doesn't run like it , not now anyway , no popping on decel , idle could sound smoother but I'm willing to settle at this point .

[WMarshy]

They look great to me! I think youve been breathing too much exhaust while its been sitting there idling. I think that white you see is the porcelain not getting colored yet, sometimes it take a while before they color in. I guess if you rode one that was out of tune maybe you'd appreciate how nice yours runs. lol GL

[TDodge7]

eventually they clean up all the way though , and they stay that way , I've heard some people say it's ok to run plugs that stay clean instead of coloring , but I'm not sure how to tell very clean apart from slightly lean . I mean none of my plugs ever come out powdery , but I can adjust the pilots lean enough to make it pop and backfire at idle .

[dbeardslee]

They look great to me!

Me too. There appears to be a little soot on them, but that's to be expected if your plugging around the neighborhood at low rpms. The business end of the plug looks clean as a whistle.

[TDodge7]

I was always led to believe that an overly clean plug was too lean . Guess I'm wrong . When I thought I was very lean I also noticed shiny specs on the end of the plug that had me thinking detonation , but then I found this on a few sites, it may be of some interest to people that run autolites like I do .

"Besides the fuel ring as an indication of the correct air-fuel ratio, another indication is light shiny spots at or near the tip of the insulator on Autolite plugs only. These are difficult to see and show up on Autolite plugs only. It has to do with the material used in the insulator. Not all insulators are the same."

I guess I'll just leave the plugs as they are for now and see how it goes . I they come out powdery later on then I'll worry .


right now plugs 1&2 look alike , and 3&4 are a hair cleaner ( as seen in the pictures) should I just bump 3&4 a hair richer and call it a day or the other way around ? or just leave it ?

[dbeardslee]

One note on plugs - the NGK Iridiums may be the best plugs I've ever run. They're about as close to a foul-proof plug that you're going to find. They pair particulary well with hot coils. JAT

[Crazcnuk]

After all the work I did on my carbs (see other posts) My plugs stayed white for a few hundred miles. Then they started to get that nice light tan color.

I was a little worried, at first, too as I thought I may be at risk of being too lean. Several thousand kms later, though the bike is running fine and my plugs are just a light tan color.

I get in the mid to high 40's (Imp) mpg depending on the day.

[TDodge7]

well I guess the plugs were doing more than just cleaning up , now I have lean symptoms , the bike sat indoors for 3 days untouched because of rain . Today I pulled it out only to find the idle hanging up at 1500rpm after a good rev , and the exhaust is popping at idle ....this is very strange since I haven't touched the mixture since I last posted in here when it was running well and everyone said it looked like the plugs were just cleaning up . How is it possible that it ran well 3 days ago on this setting but now it's too lean ? Even if it was cleaning the plugs up it should have still run like it was lean 3 days ago right ? I mean it's not like you can take a bike that's running lean as hell , and then stick some sooty plugs in and it'll suddenly run rich untill it decides to clean them up ....so what gives ?

[Ken Talbot]

I hate to keep harping on, but I'm still leaning towards some sort of itermittent vacuum leak. I don't recall reading it as this thread progressed, but did you actually try the propane or butane torch (unlit) method of checking for leaks?

[TDodge7]

yes , that was one of the first things I checked actually . The problem isn't that I have a cylinder that runs too lean all the time , I can make all of the cylinders run too lean , or I can make them all run rich . It seems to run the best when it's rich , but when I get it rich enough to run nicely the plugs always come out sooty , granted it's probably due to all the idling and low speed neighborhood runs but I never could get the tan or light grey . In fact the only time I've ever seen anything close to tan is when the plugs are changing after trying to make it leaner or richer , and by the next time I check them they've either gone sooty or white . It's getting to the point where I feel like I should just run it sooty and deal with it . As far as it seemingly changing mixture it's self over it's 3 day rest I can't explain it , it wasn't popping at idle , or hanging up after revs when I parked it . I'll admit it didn't feel quite right before I parked it , but it certainly wasn't popping or hanging , it's like it only started running lean once the plugs cleaned up enough ....but thats impossible , if it's too lean now it should have been too lean 3 days ago . The only thing that's changed is the temperature , I tuned it at around 80F and today it was around 70F .