Another electrical issue

[Larrym]

Make some noise or Not.

C-Bug,

While most of your "dark" lights share the same ground, some also share the same positive wire(fuse...).

The horn shares this same POS but with it's own ground. Go ahead and push the button.

If it does scare the cat out from behind the water heater then the fuse for those circuits is really alive and well. If the horn doesn't work then the fuse is a "poser" and should be replaced.

That fairing would require a separate grounding system for all lights. It's fiberglass or some other non-conductive material. Likely that one of the wires leading to it is the "shared" return path for all those busy electrons heading back to the barn after a hard day's work.

HTH

[CatatonicBug]

Yep. I know it's not the fuses, because I used my spare and swapped them out while I was sitting in that parking lot last night. I looked at the wiring diagram, and did notice that all of those items share a ground (including the tach). The fairing is made of ABS, and has one single plug on it. However, the thing that gets me the most about that is the fact that the flashers still work, even though the running lights don't. They use the same bulb, but I'm not sure if the ground for those two features is separate. I guess it must be.

According to the diagram, the ground that those items all share is a black wire. There are other items in the system that share the same black wire, but seemt o be unaffected though. I will be taking the fairing off and going through all the black wires from the front to the back, until I find the culprit.

[psycoreefer]

Before you go to all the work assuming its the ground, take the ground wire for any one of those items, whatever is easiest to get to (probably a signal, or the head light) Put one probe from your multi-meter on that and put the other on the battery "-" post. Check for ohms resistance (or continuity if your meter does that) and see what it reads. If it beeps, or shows anything other then infinite resistance your ground should be sufficient to light the lights.

On my bike there is only one ground for the front markers, and it is shared for both signals and running lights, the fact that your signals work would point at something other then ground, if everything is stock. In fact it seems unlikely that the signals and markers, being dual filament bulbs could have separate grounds because the bulb "body" is the ground, and that same body is used for both filaments in the bulb.

BTW - my headlight relay doesn't "latch", I can shoot video if you don't believe me but if I start the bike and then it "dies" for some reason my headlight turns back off.

[randy]

Psyco if your headlight relay doesn't latch, its broke

[CatatonicBug]

Psyco if your headlight relay doesn't latch, its broke

Agreed. Before last night, if I put the key in, and turn, the lights stayed off. When I started the bike, the headlight came on. Then, I kill the bike with the kill switch, and all the lights stay on, including the headlight. Not until I remove the key do the lights turn off.

Good idea on the continuity test. I will try that.

[CatatonicBug]

I think I have figured out the problem... I did the test described in the manual for the Reg/Rect, and discovered that it failed miserably! Here is what lead me to that test:

First, I located the headlight relay. I determined that if I plugged the kill-switch relay into the same plug, everything lights up! That tells me that all the wires have continuity. However, they were all lighting up BEFORE cranking the engine over. So, that told me that the problem lies in the fact that the relay is not getting the signal needed to switch over. I discovered that the signal comes from a white wire from the Reg/Rect.

The manual says to test the ohms across several sets of leads in the connectors on the Reg/Rect, and that when the +/- are swapped on each set of connectors, the value should only change by <10. Now, I am not an electrical guru, so I know very little about ohms, and what they mean, or how to measure them. I set my meter to the 200k setting, and for each pair of wires, I got a reading in one direction, but no reading at all in the other direction.

So, am I stuck looking for a replacement Reg/Rect now? Or am I overlooking something?

[Larrym]

The rectilizer Test

Hullo C-Bug,

From what you just said I'd say the rectifier passed the test.

The "tests" of the rectifier are basically checking the diodes inside. The diodes will "pass" electricity when the meter is one way and totally block the flow when the leads are swapped the other way.

When the meter shows that the electricity is flowing (Reading some amount of resistance other than "infinity"..) on each of those wire sets then you're s'posed to write down that number. After testing all the wire "sets" then you look at the numbers and if they're not reasonably close then the rectifier is "bad". It's also a "fail" if you swap the meter leads and they read the same: either no resistance or max resistance no matter which way the meter leads are.

If you've desoldered those wires between the rectifier and the alternator then you can now do a resistance check on the alternator windings The meter has to be set at the lowest setting possible cause you're looking at readings of 3.5 ohms on one set of terminals and .4 (point 4!!) ohms on the other set.

The alternator has to provide the juice to the rectifier so it should be look at also.

Oh!! The info I just provided was for an XS ...not an XJ!

[CatatonicBug]

The "tests" of the rectifier are basically checking the diodes inside. The diodes will "pass" electricity when the meter is one way and totally block the flow when the leads are swapped the other way.

When the meter shows that the electricity is flowing (Reading some amount of resistance other than "infinity"..) on each of those wire sets then you're s'posed to write down that number. After testing all the wire "sets" then you look at the numbers and if they're not reasonably close then the rectifier is "bad". It's also a "fail" if you swap the meter leads and they read the same: either no resistance or max resistance no matter which way the meter leads are.

Ahh! Ok, then I mis-read the manual. What you describe is exactly what is happening, so the Reg/Rect must NOT be the issue. The white wires were a bit questionable, (a crack in the insulation), but I don't think that has anything to do with this particular issue. Hmmm.... I'll keep digging in the morning. I am REALLY hoping that this whole thing is just a lose/broken wire somewhere, because MOTM is in 2 weekends, and the weather here has been incredible! All this working means that I'm wasting good riding time!

[Larrym]

C-Bug,

Don't forget and solder the wires back together before you do the resistance check of the field/stator coil windings.

If ya don't have the test procedures then I know where you can download a repair manual for free.

[b.walker5]

You dont have to desolder any wires. If I understood your previous post correctly, you said that you had soldered the wires at the troublesome alternator plug behind the right side cover. If thats the case then refer to my previous post where I suggested doing a resistance check on the alternator at the regulator plug instead. http://www.xs11.com/forum/showpost.p...14&postcount=6 My money's on a dodgey alternator or a related connection.

[Ivan]

The problem with checking ohms is that it is very unreliable. If you don't have a high dollar multi meter with a zero set function, then you need to touch your leads together and be sure it reads a solid zero. If not, your readings are going to be off. Also, test ohms are not the same as loaded ohms. When you check resistance with a multi meter, the meter sends a few millivolts through the circuit and through te use of a device called a shunt, measures the voltage drop and calculated the resistance. So, a few milliviots at a few milliamps will pass a circuit that heats up or is corroded and fails at 12 volts and 10 amps.

To check the alternator, have the bike running and check for more than 12 volts across the battery terminals. If it passes, then start loading the system. Turn on everything possible, high beam, radio, horn, etc. If the voltage drops really low, 10 volts or so, then your charging system is not up to snuff. To find the problem, back probe the three white (I think, might be yellow?) wires at the regulator connector. The alternator is a three phase AC generator, so you should get consistent AC (!) voltages between any tow of the three wires. Three checks, as in A-B, B-C, and A-C. The exact voltage will vary with load and rpm so don't get caught up on that as long as they are consistent and not zero. If that passes, then your next step is checking the field windings, which is what the regulator controls to manage the charge. I think that is the brown and green wires in the other connector. You should have very close to charging voltage across those (DC this time). If not, then the regulator is not controlling the circuit properly. Lastly, the diode check. Set your multi meter back to AC volts again, and put the leads back on the battery, you should not get anything above 1 volt AC. This is called a "ripple" test. It checks for voltage variance from the rectifier diodes. If one of them is not working, you will see a AC reading, since the voltage is going from 9 to 12 at the same rate the engine is turning. If that fails, the regulator needs replaced.

Notice how all the tests are done with the system in operating mode? That's the only reliable way to test it. Engineers that write service manuals love to use ohms and resistance as a test, but it most of the time doesn't pan out in real world situations.

Also, if there is a bad ground, then the turn signals and 4ways can still work, because they can back feed through the running light coils to find a ground. It is confusing and weird, but it happens. easiest way to trouble shoot that would be to stick a T pin (or any straight pin)through the ground wire at the head light or one of the running lights as close to the load (light bulb) as possible and run it to battery ground. If it starts working, you have a ground problem. If things get real weird, like the horn goes off half assed, you have a ground problem. After you're done checking, pull the pin out and if the holes in the insulation bother you a dab of liquid electrical tape or clear nail polish seals them back up. You could use red or pink if that's your thing, of if your into goth, black.

I am leaning toward an iffy stator, since your tach is going wild. But tachs tend to do that anyway, mine does and my stator is ok. So, it could be a ground problem or the head light relay. Hard to tell without hands on.

[CatatonicBug]

Ok, here's a question... I took the headlight relay off, and touched a 9v battery to the two leads on it that make it actuate, and it worked fine. Nice, quick travel. Could that relay still be in question?

One problem with trying to run the bike under load is that I can run the bike but because of this problem, I can't turn anything on to create a load! No headlight, front running lights, or dash lights. The rear is all LEDs now, so not much of a load.

[CatatonicBug]

I just did a "running" votage test at the battery terminals, to see whether it was charging. At rest, I get 12.8v. While running, I get 11.5v. That tells me the alternator is not charging, right??

[Larrym]

Branching Out

Magic 8-Ball on this side of the computer screen says:

"All signs point to Yes."

So if the "static" test of the rectifier was valid (rectifier=good) then the wagging finger should be pointed at the alternator.

Replacement of the alternator with a "known" good which would achieve proper charging would verify that the original was "bad".

I'm totally "down" with Ivan's "dynamic testing vs static testing". Best is to have it do what it's s'posed to do all connected together. Any disconnected "metering" is only an indirect means and the results of the static tests are only used to "infer" where the problem might be.

At least it's better than using a willow branch as a divining rod.

[DGXSER]

The other way I have been told to check my charging system is to rev the bike up to 3500-4000 and see if I get 13.5 volts or more.