chain to shaft transfer case

[mitch]

yes

Agreed jeff but the middle drive is driven by the primary chain is it not ?

[fusionking]

Is it really "chain-free"?

Hey Mitch I didn't have to say a word .........Jeff beat me to it! The way I get it, The hy-vo chain is way upline of the input for the middle drive, like 5 gears worth! But yea if that puppy quits it don't go, hence chain drive.

[docnugent]

Oops!

Is there an exploded drawing anywhere that shows the whole drivetrain from crankshaft to rear wheel (in the bike)?

I thought from earlier comments that the four hole flange was the power in (from the engine) and the splined shaft was the power out (to the rear wheel), but the last comment by Jeff - "4 hole flange is where the driveshaft connects to the unit.... it is the output" - seems to contradict that. Or am I misunderstanding something?

M D "Doc" Nugent

[Jerry]

Illustrations

Here is the description of the Hy-Vo chain from my XJ manual:



One photo in the transmission disassembly part of the manual shows the Hy-Vo in the center of the engine:



Not the best shot of the Hy-Vo but best I could find in the manual. The Hy-Vo transfers power from the crankshaft to the middle gear box, specifically to the Primary shaft.

There is no engine to wheel power diagram in the manual or microfiche that I could find.

[sixtysix]

Re: Oops!

Originally posted by docnugent
Is there an exploded drawing anywhere that shows the whole drivetrain from crankshaft to rear wheel (in the bike)?

I thought from earlier comments that the four hole flange was the power in (from the engine) and the splined shaft was the power out (to the rear wheel), but the last comment by Jeff - "4 hole flange is where the driveshaft connects to the unit.... it is the output" - seems to contradict that. Or am I misunderstanding something?

M D "Doc" Nugent

The four hole flange IS the output to the drive shaft on an XS 11, the XS 11 was rated at 95 HP.

[docnugent]

First, I really appreciate the time you're all taking to get me up to speed on this box!

Second, I'm still not clear on all the parts between the primary shaft shown above and the rear axle. Specifically:
1. What is bolted to the four hole flange? A gear, a sprocket, the rear wheel itself, . . . ?
2. Does the splined shaft go straight into the bike's transmission, or is there an external coupler of some sort between the middle drive (that I've been calling a transfer case) and the bike's transmission output?

Thanks again for sticking with this topic,
M D "Doc" Nugent

[docnugent]

Light bulb just lit up!

I think I may have been imagining the middle drive in the wrong orientation. Is this correct:
- Splined shaft points toward right side of bike, and
- Four hole flange's shaft points toward rear of bike?

M D "Doc" Nugent

[Mike Hart]

- Splined shaft points toward right side of bike, and
- Four hole flange's shaft points toward rear of bike?

Right. Flange bolts to u-joint and driveshaft.

The primary shaft drives (via the crank, the clutch , the tranny, the Hy-Vo chain) the splined shaft that points to the right.

Ever seen an XS11? I'm in Shoreline. Catch me off line.

mdhartmd@comcast.net (some call me Doc)

[Jeff]

In your picture of the middle drive.... it is oriented the way it would be if you were sitting on the bike with the input shaft pointing out the right and the output flange to the rear. The 4 hole flange bolts to a large universal joint which is the pivot point of the drive shaft. The driveshaft is connected to this universal joint and runs rearward to a differential gear drive that is attached to the rear wheels axle. The housing of the drive shaft runs down the left side of the bike and acts as the left side of the swingarm.

The way I understand it.... the crankshaft is connected to the primary drive (ie transmission, clutch, etc) by the Hy-Vo chain. The power.... after passing thru the clutch and transmission (all with transverse or horizontally mounted shafts) ... is fed to the input shaft of the middle drive unit thru the shaft that sticks out the right side by a gear. The main function of the middle drive is to transfer power from a horizontally or transverse mounted driven shaft system to the rearward drive shaft by changing the rotation 90 degrees. The Final Drive then converts the rotation of the rearward drive shaft to the horizontally mounted rear axle again changing the rotation 90 degrees.

[Jeff]

This might help. It shows the entire drivetrain somewhat. You can see the middle drive in the center just ahead of the large rubber boot the driveline comes out of. A part of it is cut away.
From looking at the blowup parts diagrams.... the input shaft that sticks out the right side of the middle drive is splined and fits into the center of a gear that is the output of the transmission.

[docnugent]

GOT IT!

Thanks, all.

I think the middle drive (what the eBay seller called a transfer case) will work for my little trike project - I just have to make a few corrections to my web page now that I know better as a result of your informative input.

M D "Doc" Nugent

[Geezer]

Re: Pictures

Originally posted by docnugent
I just threw together a web page that shows the inspiration for this project:
http://www.carcentric.com/SpitTrike.htm

M D "Doc" Nugent

I've been thinking about something like this with an XS11 engine up front. But I don’t' see why you need to run a chain drive. I'm planning to run an XS11 rear drive but maybe with a smaller rear wheel if I can get one to work. I was planning to use a 2 piece drive line like used on the old Chevy’s.

When it's all done it won't weigh much more that a full dress XS11 so the power should be OK.

Geezer

[docnugent]

Engine rotation direction?

I don't know about Chevy drivelines, but the flywheel (and thus the driveshaft) of the Spitfire turns counterclockwise when viewed from the rear. If the Spitfire driveshaft was welded to the driveshaft of the XS1100's final drive, I think the trike would have four speeds in reverse and one forward. Using the XS1100's middle drive unit and a chain to the rear wheel keeps the power flowing in the needed direction (forward).

The other issue is that the driveshaft of a car goes down the middle of the vehicle, while the driveshaft of the XS1100 goes down the side of the rear tire. Unless you put in a gear or chain offset at some point in the driveline, the rear tire couldn't be in line with the car's driveshaft (i.e., down the center of the vehicle), and I don't think an offset rear wheel is either safe or good looking.

If you're going to use the engine/trans, mdu, and final drive all from the same bike, it should work fine, but car-to-bike combos are a little trickier.

BTW, it seems most chain-driven bikes have the chain on the left side - are there any with the chain on the right side? I'd also like to use a wire wheel (versus alloy), so think '70s or early '80s.

M D "Doc" Nugent

[Geezer]

Re: Engine rotation direction?

Originally posted by docnugent
I don't know about Chevy drivelines, but the flywheel (and thus the driveshaft) of the Spitfire turns counterclockwise when viewed from the rear. If the Spitfire driveshaft was welded to the driveshaft of the XS1100's final drive, I think the trike would have four speeds in reverse and one forward. Using the XS1100's middle drive unit and a chain to the rear wheel keeps the power flowing in the needed direction (forward).

The other issue is that the driveshaft of a car goes down the middle of the vehicle, while the driveshaft of the XS1100 goes down the side of the rear tire. Unless you put in a gear or chain offset at some point in the driveline, the rear tire couldn't be in line with the car's driveshaft (i.e., down the center of the vehicle), and I don't think an offset rear wheel is either safe or good looking.

If you're going to use the engine/trans, mdu, and final drive all from the same bike, it should work fine, but car-to-bike combos are a little trickier.

BTW, it seems most chain-driven bikes have the chain on the left side - are there any with the chain on the right side? I'd also like to use a wire wheel (versus alloy), so think '70s or early '80s.

M D "Doc" Nugent

So why do you have to use Spitfire rear wheel?

Honda on the 900 Custom added a high-low gearbox that adapted a chain drive system over to use the rear shaft that was also used on the goldwing. The chain drive was on the left and the shaft was on the right. They ran a jackshaft behind the engine to make it work.

If you really wanted to move it over to the other side, one of those would be a good way to do it. Also the old goldwing rear wheels had spokes.

I'd use a Yamaha rear wheel but I'm sure you can find the stuff you want to make it the way you want it cheap enough it you look around. I'm willing to bet it' would be that hard to mate up a spoked rear wheel to a rear drive that came attached to a mag.

Geezer

[docnugent]

Geezer -
I suspect we're missing each others' points. On the web page, it says "= ISSUES TO BE DECIDED =
- Hard tail or soft tail? . . .
- Rear wheel from a car or a motorcycle? . . ."

It would be nice to have all three wheels match, but I imagine it will be less engineering to just use a rear wheel from a bike with its brake, sprocket, axle, and trailing arms intact. Might even just use the rearmost part of the bike frame, too, to have proper bushings for the trailing arms and proper geometry for the springs/shocks. In other words, I don't HAVE to use the Spitfire's rear wheel, but it would be nice if I could figure out how.

Similarly, the reason I was asking about bikes that would have the chain on the right side is that the output of the XS1100 middle drive unit (the way I'll be using it, with a sprocket bolted to the four-hole flange) will be on the right side. I can use some intermediate sprockets on a common shaft to move the power from right to left, but it would be nice to keep it all on the right if that's possible. This is what I'll have if I have to use a left sprocketed bike (the yellow box is the Yamaha XS1100's middle drive unit, and the Spitfire's backbone frame is in turquoise):


M D "Doc" Nugent