Soldering vs Crimping

[crazy steve]

I don't say any of this due to opinion. I worked in the electronics industry over 20 years and manufacturing over 30.

Deny

Deny, sorry, but you're also confusing electronics and electrical; again, two different applications, with different rules.

In electronics, you're dealing with low voltages and currents and any degradation in either can have serious effects on circuit operation. Here, the connection conductivity is king and other considerations take a back seat.

In electrical, you have circuits that are much more tolerant of voltage/current variations, operate at much higher voltages/currents, as well as there being much larger variations in the values of the items you're hooking to. How good the connection is isn't as important (although it's definitely a factor) as much as mechanical strength, corrosion resistance, and resistance to movement or vibration failure.

And all this arguing about how 'good' electrically solder vs crimp connections are is silly. Think about this; at point-of-use on the factory bike harness, virtually all items depend on either pressure or friction connections. Every light except for the headlight uses spring-loaded contacts, and everything else uses a friction connection or a combination of the two. They don't even use good-conducting metals; brass and cad-plated steel is common. If these were electronic connectors, they would be silver or gold plated. Electrically, the factory connectors aren't even as good as a crimp, yet the bike functioned just fine when new.

If these were electronic circuits, none of them would work right; ground paths through bolted connections to steel(!?), 'noise' from vibrating light sockets, the list goes on. Truthfully, a properly-done crimp is better than all of these...

'78E original owner

[Larrym]

Supply? Signals? or Switches?

Uhmmm....A little clarification here? Mebbe it' just cause right now only half the cup of coffee is kickin' in or this really is one of those dialogues that keeps us operating at or near my own mental "boggle point".

"Electrical" vs "Electronic" is a little fuzzy right now.

When I hear electrical I think of AC power distribution from the generating plant all the way to the receptacle I'm gonna plug my shaver into later on today. And mostly cause I've had my face inside the access panels/junction boxes at ground level (No pole climbing TYVM), I tend to think of solid stranded wire. Well ordered lugs at the circuit breaker box and rat's nests behind every other accessible point where John Q. Public can and has gone inside without even touching a "Time-Life" book on home wiring.

Solid stranded everywhere and only very rarely any soldering. Not really many "end connectors" if you don't count wire-nuts, crimped or otherwise. I'm ok with that cause at one point there might have been someone who knew the "code" and tried to follow it. (Though I find it interesting that at one point in time the code allowed "aluminumeeum" solid wire which ended up with it's own shortcomings...)

Electronic conjures up images of circuit boards, components mounted on them, the little pathways of aluminum or copper that run like tiny interstate highway lanes, and the wires/cables that sometimes loop up and over stuff to connect between point on the boards or to terminate with a connector that obviously is s'posed to hook up to something off the board. It's no surprise to see those wires/cables leading to yet another circuit board and yet another.

Multi-stranded wire (pre-tinned or not) is the rule here, not the exception. After the 120 AC has been connected to the board, been stepped down, rectified, and regulated into DC less than 40 Volts, it all sorta looks the same. The wires may change gauge, color, or length but they're all multi-stranded with the appropriate sized/gendered connector on the end.

So those wires and most of what I "see" right now in my semi-caffeinated state, look very similar to what I recall when looking at on my XS and a lot of other bikes when I dared to open the side covers or look inside the headlight bucket.

Which category should the wires running from my rectifier to my harness be put into? Electrical? Electronic?

Electricalonic??

Gawd!! Life must have been so much easier when every body knew the world was flat. In those days folks also knew what to do with the guys who put forth notions that might have them look at the horizon and see it less than perfectly straight.



Right now I'm checkin' my supply of sheet metal and pop rivets.

Say Steve, Umm...what size hat do you wear?

[DenyP]

You are right, the discussion shifted from application to something else. I crimp most everything on a bike or car in doing a repair. A well executed crimp is as good as it needs to be. IMHO it is easier to make an occasional acceptable crimp then it is a reliable solder connection for most people unless they are experienced and proficient.

Deny

[cywelchjr]

The point is, that electrical devices (which for the most part are what we have on our bikes, and the electronic stuff all hooks to electrical devices) have pretty high tolerance for resistance in the connections, as steve said, if that was not the case, they would use gold plated connectors in there like computers tend to use (unless you have some cheap knockoff stuff, and how well do those work?). The reason we have to clean the connections is because they are electrical, which is also why they still mostly work even with poor connections, electronic stuff (and most avionics stuff falls far closer to electronics than electrical) is soldered. The thing you have to remember here, is that most electronic stuff actually operates in the 5 volt and lower range, with some limited 12 volt stuff for motors, and most of that is going away as well as the motors get smaller and run off the 5 volts. Bikes and automotive gear tents both the slightly higher voltage (generally 12, but there is talk of going higher due to the high demand for power in modern vehicles) and generally MUCH higher current levels. Most electronics stuff uses LED's for light sources, where most automotive stuff uses incandescent bulbs, which is an order of magnitude difference in current draw. Granted, there is a move towards LEDs in automotive stuff, but that is primarily to avoid needing to increase the voltage of the electrical system to drive the desires of consumers.

One of the reasons why we are still at 12 volts for automotive applications (or 24 for some diesels) is because it takes 31 volts to overcome the resistance of the human body enough to cause harm/shock, and 12 volts by itself is pretty safe. Not to say you can't hurt yourself, just drop a wrench across the terminals of a car battery if you don't believe it. But it takes more amps to do the same work than it does at higher voltages, plus, the affect of resistance because the current to do the work is lower, is less of an issue.

In any case I digress. The point is that for our type applications, crimping is the most efficient way to deal with it MOST OF THE TIME. There are situations where soldering is still better, generally when connecting to a socket or such.

[clcorbin]

Clint:

Uh, isn't that what I said?

That's not what I took from this quote of your reply to Tod:

Tod: No, you still are confusing electronics and electrical. Yes, solder is commonly used in the electronics industy, and on more than just circuit boards. And they don't refer to 'Aircraft Electrical', but call it 'Aircraft Electronics'. But in the electrical field, solder connections are illegal 'unless part of an approved assembly', i.e. is a factory assembled item and has a testing lab approval such as UL. If I had a current copy of the NEC, I could quote the pertinent section but what it says is ALL field connections 'shall be made by mechanical means', no exceptions. Any sort of electronic gear I ever installed (fire alarm panels, freq drives, etc) always had mechanical terminal strips for the field wires. And THE big difference between 'electronics' and 'electrical' is the circuit current and available fault currents; where most electronics operate at currents measured in milliamps, that's not the case in electrical circuits.

The part I put in bold makes it sound like you are applying it to ALL connectors, not just building electrical. To be fair, near the beginning of this passage you DO say "But in the electrical field..." which could be interpreted to mean building electrical.

Unfortunately, in other posts you try to make the point that there is a difference between "electronics" and "electrical" and that our bikes have an "electrical" system. So in that context, saying "But in the electrical field..." it sounds like you are trying to apply the NEC to things like our motorcycles or Tod's aircraft.

I know the NEC has nothing to do cars, planes, etc. I merely brought this up to show that people smarter than me say it's a bad thing used in the wrong place.

There are some very cool vehicle wiring connector methods out there, but they're not particularly cheap. Tyco and Deutsch are two types I've used personally. The Deutsch is my fav when I can afford it, with crimp-on pins/plugs, and cool little silicon seals for everything. But at about $5 for just a two-wire plug, and over $20 for a eight-wire, you can have a lot of money in a harness real fast...

We are actually in violent agreement here. I FULLY trust a crimped connector over the "normal" soldered connectors you will find on a car. But those Cannon plugs are what is going to be on any airplane I build (yes, I want to build a kit plane).

I've used Deutsch and Weatherpac personally and I like them both. Neither of them are good enough to hold the jock strap of a Cannon plug. Too much plastic that gets jacked up by heat and UV exposure. But they beat the heck out of the low cost "connectors" you find a your normal autoparts store.

But as I said, I think we are in violent agreement on crimp connectors. As long as the correct crimp pliers is used...

[crazy steve]

"Electrical" vs "Electronic" is a little fuzzy right now...

Say Steve, Umm...what size hat do you wear?

Cy pretty much nailed it; electronics operate usually at milliamps levels (and very rarely beyond 2 amps), electrical is at higher levels.

Hat? I wear a hardhat with tinfoil on the inside.... doesn't everyone?

'78E original owner

[crazy steve]

We are actually in violent agreement here. I FULLY trust a crimped connector over the "normal" soldered connectors you will find on a car. But those Cannon plugs are what is going to be on any airplane I build (yes, I want to build a kit plane).

I only brought the NEC into it because that's a 'recognized' standard for electrical connections and has methods that have been proven to work for higher current applications. But 'electronics' kept getting drug into this, and that's a different kettle of fish. Vehicle wiring? No standards... if you want to wire your bike with zip cord and scotch tape, have at it.

Yeah, Cannon plugs are the definitely the 'premium' method, but the cost! They make Duetsch connectors look like twist-and-tape in comparison. They can be a bit of a pain to assemble too...

'78E original owner

[Larrym]

Oubliette Bound

Darn it!!

I was almost there: that comfy/cozy place where everything made sense and I could "go along to get along" Or "get along to go along" depending on which way one looks at it.

But then I remembered something. Like finding a tiny piece of errant yarn poking out of my sweater at the neckline. Should'a just ignored it or maybe cut it off with a pair of nail clippers. But that's not me. I just had to pull on it.



I can go along with pulling off the purty blue insulation and then using the real crimpers which actually put a dimple in things. That's a fine mechanical connection both for pull-out strength and electrical connectivity. Most times I can remember to slide the glue lined shrink tube on the wire before I do the attachment. (When I don't remember? That never happens.) In the end I've got a firm mechanical connection, excellent connectivity, and the shrink tubing serves as a strain relief. I should'a just walked away fat, dumb, and happy.

As John Belushi would say best: "But NOOOooooh!!"

The connectors pictured above are made out of aluminum. The wire is made out of copper.

Magic Words: Dissimilar Metals Equals Galvanic Corrosion.

The Coffin Nail.

In moist industrial areas harmful electrolytes are formed by the absorption of gases by rain and fog to form acids and salts, while in seaside areas they are formed by the combination of salt with the moisture latent atmosphere to form saline solutions.

To prevent this galvanic or Electro-chemical corrosion in the case of copper and aluminum the following methods may be employed:

(1) Sealing the joint from the atmosphere by taping with a moisture proof tape or use of some suitable sealer.

(2) Soldering the contact surfaces together.

(3) Plating the contact surfaces with some rust resisting metal whose potential lies between that of copper and aluminum.

(4) Application of corrosion inhibitor compound to minimize the introduction of harmful electrolytes.

Rule out #1...Found out a long time ago that tape-wrapping stuff/shrink-wrapping stuff IMO (In MY Observations...) actually trapped moisture in while maintaining the illusion that it was clean and dry underneath.

I'm back in the bottomless pit where #2 soldering is the only way out again. At least for me in my "marine environment".

I'm gonna join mxmikie in the desert. Maybe I'll start a gila monster ranch. Ride my XS in the roundups.

Nope. Back to unpackin' a soldering iron every time I replace a connector.

[randy]

Can't we talk about oil now? PLEEEASE?

[bikerphil]

I have a wire nut holding my voltage regulator hot wire on, not about to change it either.

[crazy steve]

The connectors pictured above are made out of aluminum. The wire is made out of copper.

First off, I doubt they're aluminum. In larger sizes (#8 and larger) you'll find aluminum-bodied connectors, but I've never seen any in smaller sizes. Why are they silver? Tin plating. This is commonly applied to nearly all crimp connectors for both as a corrosion inhibitor, and also eliminates any dissimilar metal issues. If you can solder to it, it's not aluminum.

Also look at it's rating; if rated for copper wire, it will have 'CU' on it somewhere if it's UL-approved, AL if it's good for aluminum wire, and AL-CU if it's rated for both. Aluminum wire is still commonly used in the industry, but after burning up a bunch of mobile homes in the early 70s, they restricted it to #6 stranded and larger sizes and put in specific directions for use. The aluminum house 'rope' is looong gone...

'78E original owner

[clcorbin]

Aluminum wire is still commonly used in the industry, but after burning up a bunch of mobile homes in the early 70s, they restricted it to #6 stranded and larger sizes and put in specific directions for use. The aluminum house 'rope' is looong gone...

Another case of a good product with a bad name and/or banned because of incompetent/lazy/cheap installation practices. The actual problem wasn't the aluminum wire, it was the crappy outlets with push in connections that should never have been used with aluminum. Poor connection = heat. Heat = lots of expansion in the aluminum. Lot's of expansion = stretched spring connectors. Stretched spring connectors = poor connection. And the cycle continues until something catches on fire or melts.

They couldn't prevent "installers" from using aluminum wire in those push in connectors, but they COULD prevent the manufacturers' from MAKING aluminum wire in sizes that could be used with those types of connectors, so, away went aluminum wire.

Of course, even with screw connection, improperly installed aluminum wire will have more issues with thermal expansion and corrosion than copper will, so it's probably best that it is gone.

[crazy steve]

Another case of a good product with a bad name and/or banned because of incompetent/lazy/cheap installation practices. The actual problem wasn't the aluminum wire, it was the crappy outlets with push in connections that should never have been used with aluminum. Poor connection = heat. Heat = lots of expansion in the aluminum. Lot's of expansion = stretched spring connectors. Stretched spring connectors = poor connection. And the cycle continues until something catches on fire or melts.

They couldn't prevent "installers" from using aluminum wire in those push in connectors, but they COULD prevent the manufacturers' from MAKING aluminum wire in sizes that could be used with those types of connectors, so, away went aluminum wire.

Of course, even with screw connection, improperly installed aluminum wire will have more issues with thermal expansion and corrosion than copper will, so it's probably best that it is gone.

That was certainly part of it, but it is much touchier about install even so. The BIG problem was mobile homes; even with a good initial install, by the time the mobile was hauled to the site and set up, all the connections had been 'flexed' enough from the transportation movement that problems showed up later. And the mobile builders (who used aluminum because it was cheaper) also used cheap Zinsco panels/breakers. These were notorious for not tripping under anything but a dead short (and sometimes not even then; the joke was 'a 20 amp breaker protected by a #12 wire...), so if you only had a slight overload, you got a 60' toaster oven.

The feds still won't allow it on their jobs, and even a lot of the local govts don't like it. But put in right it'll work just fine....

'78E original owner

[b.walker5]

The connectors pictured above are made out of aluminum. The wire is made out of copper.

Sorry Larry but if you get your side cutters and cut those things in half I'm pretty sure you'll find Tin Plated Copper.

[randy]

I got your splice right here....

Ok, here's my favorite splice photo. I found this during my demolition of my basement in PA. It's not the worst thing I found, either. After I disconnected everything, I had a live 1900 box. The PO had used one of the ground wires as a return from another circuit. Took me awhile to figure out why that 1900 box was live! What a maroon! I just hope he doesn't reproduce Find THIS in your NFPA70!!