Will a low battry keep an XS11 from starting?

[Larrym]

True or False?

the difference is the impedance. As a side note, this also limits maximum motor rpm, so you can't have a 'runaway' motor.
'78E original owner

Crazy Steve,

Nice "side-bar" dialogue goin' on. Just the type of stuff that makes this site worth putting in the favorites bar.

Uh, ummm. So I believed that the starter motor on our bikes was/is a series wound DC motor just like the kind used in cars: Max torque but has to have a mechanical load or it'll spin up fast enough to destroy itself. I've seen people "bump" an uninstall-ed automotive starter and it jumps unless a foot is on it holding it firmly in place but I've never seen them keep it connected so it runs continuously. I dunno..our starters might be a shunt or compound and therefore be safe to hook up to a battery while the unit is uninstall-ed/off the bike.

So I've never bench tested a motorcycle starter by hooking it up to power and letting it run continuously.

Have I been wussing out for no good reason cause it's really ok to do this?

Never mind...I wouldn't be able to get past the arcin' and a-sparkin' when making the initial connection.

[cywelchjr]

Crazy Steve,

Nice "side-bar" dialogue goin' on. Just the type of stuff that makes this site worth putting in the favorites bar.

Uh, ummm. So I believed that the starter motor on our bikes was/is a series wound DC motor just like the kind used in cars: Max torque but has to have a mechanical load or it'll spin up fast enough to destroy itself. I've seen people "bump" an uninstall-ed automotive starter and it jumps unless a foot is on it holding it firmly in place but I've never seen them keep it connected so it runs continuously. I dunno..our starters might be a shunt or compound and therefore be safe to hook up to a battery while the unit is uninstall-ed/off the bike.

So I've never bench tested a motorcycle starter by hooking it up to power and letting it run continuously.

Have I been wussing out for no good reason cause it's really ok to do this?

Never mind...I wouldn't be able to get past the arcin' and a-sparkin' when making the initial connection.

I have run a starter without it installed. It didn't grenade, it spun up a good bit, and it jumped when it started spinning because there is a LOT of torque there, but any time you have a conductor moving through a magnetic field you get inductance. Be it a pulsed DC field as you have in a starter motor, or an AC field, you get a moving magnetic field which induces an apposing current, which equals inductance. All electrical motors change their inductance with load and speed, they draw the most at startup/low speed and the least at max speed/load. This is just part of basic electrical theory.

I may not be a master mechanic, but electrical and electronics has been my primary field of interest and study since high school. That's why a bad starter can make a good battery look bad, because if it doesn't spin properly it draws more current, putting a greater load on the battery than it was designed to handle.

[crazy steve]

Crazy Steve,

Nice "side-bar" dialogue goin' on. Just the type of stuff that makes this site worth putting in the favorites bar.

Uh, ummm. So I believed that the starter motor on our bikes was/is a series wound DC motor just like the kind used in cars: Max torque but has to have a mechanical load or it'll spin up fast enough to destroy itself. I've seen people "bump" an uninstall-ed automotive starter and it jumps unless a foot is on it holding it firmly in place but I've never seen them keep it connected so it runs continuously. I dunno..our starters might be a shunt or compound and therefore be safe to hook up to a battery while the unit is uninstall-ed/off the bike.

So I've never bench tested a motorcycle starter by hooking it up to power and letting it run continuously.

Have I been wussing out for no good reason cause it's really ok to do this?

Never mind...I wouldn't be able to get past the arcin' and a-sparkin' when making the initial connection.

The starter installed in the XS is a series-wound motor, as are nearly all the starter motors I've ever seen. And it's not a 'DC' motor either; this type is called a 'universal' motor and it would be perfectly happy running on 12v AC (The only 'true' DC-only motors are ones with permanent magnets in lieu of field windings). If you run it no-load, at some point the impedance gets high enough to limit current and maximum speed. Is it 'good' for them to do this? Who knows? I doubt that it would spin fast enough to throw any windings or commutator segments but it will definitely shorten brush life, and I doubt if the bushings used in these would like the high rpm; but to bench test, no problem.

Although I did see a 'homemade' kiddy car that a guy built using a couple of car batteries and a car starter as the motor. He had gotten hold of some big old industrial reostat for the speed control. The kid could literally 'smoke' the other kids with their store-bought electric cars, and it could do mini-burnouts! But it was too fast, so he ended up pulling the 12v batteries and putting in 6v units to slow it down. One of the downsides was you couldn't quick-charge it like the storeboughts; once the batteries were low, it was put up until the next day. It did eat motors too, but he was getting them out of the boneyards so who knows how used-up they were to start with...

'78E original owner

[Larrym]

The World is Flat and Atlas Holds it Up.

Thanks Cy, Crazy Steve.

I'm ok with learning new things but it really bugs me when I find out that something I knew to be true just ain't so...

Next time I have to pull a starter I'm gonna ....I mean I'll ....

Nope. I prob'ly should ask the wizard for just a little more courage next time I'm in the Emerald City.

.

[Mashermoto]

Checked the big honk'in new battery this morning and the charge light is green...meaning I'm good to go

My cold symptoms are not as bad today so I'm off to work this morning. Tonight I have to help some 6 and 7 year olds learn bible verses at church...bless their little hearts

So, Thursday night I'll be back in the Man Cave...man I hope that solenoid is bad I'm thinking the way to thread the coil wires back through once opened up is to tie a little thread to each wire and pull them through that way

But I know...I know...first check the ground connections, install the battery, then see if it works I also need to set the timing like Pete mentioned. I hadn't thought about that...actually I should be able to align the timing plate to the F mark then rotate the pulse coils to line up with the reluctor. That should get it close enough to start

Well, I got to get to work to pay for that battery I bought at Wal Mart yesterday

In the meantime, I'll give you guys a topic to discuss. The Partridge Family was neither a bird or a family...please discuss at will

[XJOK2PLAY]

Hope she fires up for ya Thursday night, MasherMoto.

Good Luck.
Bob

[DGXSER]

The Partridge Family was neither a bird or a family...please discuss at will

I don't know, did you ever see that ladies legs! (as in Bird Legs)

[draketrumpet]

Related possible problem

So, the last couple times I've started my bike, I hit the starter, and it sounds like the starter just spins without turning the engine over. I immediately let go and let it sit for 10-20 seconds, try again, and presto, starts right up...or at least as right up as it usually has in the cold.

I'm a little new, so I'm not as familiar with all the mechanics that are going on underneath, but is this something I should be ripping the starter off to check in to? If so, what might be the problem?

Thanks again.

[Guest]

Spin the engine to seat the rings.

Pull out all 4 Spart Plugs, Put some Marvel Mystery oil in the cylinders and turn over the bike for about 10 revolutions. Stop let it rest a few mins and continue that cycle for about 100 turns.

YOur truck battery or a Boat battery will work fine. DO NOT have it connected to the trucks alternator.

[trbig]

YOur truck battery or a Boat battery will work fine. DO NOT have it connected to the trucks alternator.

LMAO.. Go back and read a bit. All of that has already been talked about. That's an old wive's tale that just won't die. It's kinda like replacing a 100 watt lightbulb with a 25 watt bulb, and people telling you it's going to blow that 25 watt bulb because the house is CAPABLE of operating the 100 watt. Just because you have your coffee pot on a 30 amp circuit... it doesn't mean your coffee pot is going to get 30 amps sent to it... UNLESS there's a short somewhere.. which is in the warnings about shorted battery cells.


Tod

[trbig]

And about seating the rings.. there's a recent thread on engine break ins that should be read. To think that simply rotating and engine and using the spring tension the rings have against the cylinders is going to seat anything... wrong. To assume that this few pounds of spring tension against the cylinder walls is going to hold back probably several thousand PSI in the combustion chamber... again, wrong. It's the combustion gasses forcing the rings against the cylinders. You can spin the motor until the cows come home with the plugs out, but you aren't going to seat the rings without the combustion pressures forcing those rings against the honed cylinders.


Tod

[DiverRay]

Tod, in my thread, spinning the engine was NOT to seat the rings, but to get oil through the engine. I think WickedGood is trying to say the same thing.
Just my own observation after almost a cup of coffee.

[XJOK2PLAY]

So, the last couple times I've started my bike, I hit the starter, and it sounds like the starter just spins without turning the engine over. I immediately let go and let it sit for 10-20 seconds, try again, and presto, starts right up...or at least as right up as it usually has in the cold.

I'm a little new, so I'm not as familiar with all the mechanics that are going on underneath, but is this something I should be ripping the starter off to check in to? If so, what might be the problem?

Thanks again.

Mine does this occaisionally, too. It has to do w/ the starter drive not ejecting out into the driven gear. Sometimes, it's because the spring gets weak, sometimes it's because the shaft can get kinda cruddy and the drive gets sticky, sometimes happens if the starter doesn't spin w/ enough torque to throw the drive out as it spins up, (low battery,) and sometimes... it's just the nature of the beast. (Design.)

Case in point... I've got a Champion Bass boat w/ a 175 hp Mercury Black Max outboard. The starter does the same thing sometimes, and is annoying when it does it. So... thinking I had a bad starter drive, I spent $40 & replaced it. Guess what? Yep... does the same exact thing. Sometimes design also plays a role in it as well. My starter, itself, is relatively new... including the battery.

In this case, the starter is on the engine in a vertical position, and the drive must also fight gravity. Great for release, but not for engagement.
On our bikes, they're on their side, which you'd think that would be better.
I do know they're a pain to take off!

You probably could replace w/ a complete new starter & drive, & find that sometimes it will continue to do the same thing. I would only worry about it if it gets REALLY bad... (like doing it all the time and not engaging.)

It could have a drive that's getting a weak spring or crudded up shaft, and removal / cleaning / drive replacement might help. But if it's happening only on occaision, I think a lot of these 30 year old bikes do it. Mine does. Annoying when it does it, but doesn't bother me enough yet to start tearing it apart.

HTH's.
Bob

[trbig]

Bob, the starters on these are totally different creature than a boat or car. There's no bendix to kick forward like the other starters do. The starter on these are always engaged with the gear, it's the starter clutch.. basically 3 rollers at an angle that pinch against the shaft in one direction that has problems sometimes.


Tod

[draketrumpet]

Bob, the starters on these are totally different creature than a boat or car. There's no bendix to kick forward like the other starters do. The starter on these are always engaged with the gear, it's the starter clutch.. basically 3 rollers at an angle that pinch against the shaft in one direction that has problems sometimes.


Tod

Am I to presume, though, that the advice Bob gives is still sound: if it doesn't do it often, no big deal?

Also, would a weak battery still cause it to not engage at times?

Thanks.