Will a low battry keep an XS11 from starting?

[79XS11F]

Oh Man You guys aren't going to believe this...The referees in the replay booth have reviewed the tapes and the ruling on the field is REVERSED Winner winner chicken dinners for all...the battery is BAD

Ok, yesterday I took it to the O'Reilley auto parts store to have it checked. The clerk checked the battery with a hand held device programmed for 350 cca. His initial reading was it was bad. So the manager told him to hook it up on the stress test machine. After about ten minutes it's proclaimed good. So I reported to you that it was good.

Now then, yesterday it read 14 v when I brought it home. This morning it read 12.5 v. Hmmmm

So today I took it to a NAPA store and their hand held device reported it bad. Strike one. So I took it to a different O'Reilley store and they hooked it up on their stress test machine. It reported the battery as bad. Strike two. So I took it to an Autozone store. They used a hand held device that also reported it bad. So three strikes...time to throw this battery in the street.

Well, I really like the maintenance free batteries, but none are available without ordering one. So just to get by I went to Wal Mart and bought an acid fill battery for $45 and a battery maintainer for $20. At least they gave me $9 for my $70 AGM battery Anyway, I'm now only out $56 and should know within a couple of days what the next bottle neck is

Dang I hate messing with battery acid

I'll go charge this new battery up...in the meantime you guys keep hammering out those electronic equations...just don't hammer each other

OK so your getting a new battery and you will be adding the fluid yourself. It's easy enough to do just be clean and CAREFUL with that stuff. Make sure you CHARGE this new battery. The last battery I bought the lad at the counter told me to just fill it and put in in the bike and away I go. WRONG. The instructions say clearly that the battery MUST be charged before it is put into use or SHORT battery life will result. Read the instruction and follow them. Given that the XS1100 does not have a real good charging system do not count on the bike putting that starting charge on the battery. My battery that I did nto charge before putting it into use is 2 years old and will not longer accept a charge... it is TOAST.
Rob

[Mashermoto]

A wolf What the what

Actually you have to use 3D glasses...its kinda like the Avatar movie...with 3D glasses you see blue alien creatures with long tails

[Mashermoto]

79,

No problemo on the charge.



I let it set for one hour after filling with acid and she's charging as we speak at a cool 1.5A



Got one of these at Wal Mart Makes things real simple...just hook it up and let it do its thing. It charges at 1.5A untill fully charged, then goes into maintenance mode. If the voltage drops too low it starts charging again. These have been around for a while, but the first time I've used one. Only cost $20...what the what have I been thinking using my old 20 year old bulk charger all this time and worrying about leaving it on too long It won't even let you hook it up backwards

[Larrym]

Charge Ahead!!

Narrator Voice-Over:

"Meanwhile as Mashermoto's new battery is being charged/prepared for installation the XS11.Com Virtual pit crew loses interest. After all they see it about as appealing as watching paint dry or watching the grass grow. Their attention and discussion wanders...."

Odd thing about batteries is that those CCA ratings of whatever amperage come into play not only when the starting system is engaged but also when a dead short is made across the battery terminals. (Or when the good battery is immediately connected to a "bad" one.)

Another battery rating comes into play when jumping one battery to another which is independent of the charging system voltages/current. It's called the battery "BULK" rating or something equally off-putting. It's the amount of current that a battery can safely accept without being damaged when the battery is at it's lowest voltage/minimum capacity level. I mean a "near-death" level. The rating is there in the data sheet for all to view.

This bulk rating is higher than the "acceptance" rating which is what we generally see when we hook up a 10-15-20 amp charger and look at the needle after 10 minutes. But even those chargers which are so big that they have to be rolled around on wheels have safety features which limit the current to below the usual sized car battery "bulk" rating.

So....connecting one fully charged battery to one at or near DEATH is a very risky action. The moment of connection is a pass/fail test where without any safety devices inline the donor battery graciously offers it's maximum CCA and the recipient battery may/may not gulp down more than it's safely rated to swallow in one big Bulk swallow. If all goes well nothing happens. If not I can tell you from personal observation that the results are both LOUD and messy.

Given this and the possibility of polarity problems due to misinformation, poor observation skills, or hop-induced bravado, I really wish that the cable manufacturers would make a set which let the operator make the connections at each vehicle and then move somewhere away from the batteries where one could join a connector in the middle of the cable. That's just my own personal comfort zone.

BTW, According to the measurements I took last night the actual resistance of my starter circuit was between .0365 and .04 Ohms. (Voltage drop of 3 volts@ 80 amps measured at the starter side of the solenoid...) Not really useful to know cause that resistance is too low to read on any of the meters I own. Point is that when the starter/solenoid/cables are connected to the battery it's not a total dead short. Still makes the battery put out a decent amount of it's CCA rating though.

Video was uploaded to photobucket just like an ordinary pic. Inserting in forum post was same method as posting a pic as well.

We now resume the standard "sitting on pins and needles" as we wait for Mashermoto's next update....

.

[Mashermoto]

Ok Mr. Microphone Man

In anticipation of what I think my next problem will be, is it possible to get inside an OEM solenoid?

As mentioned earlier I did a test on the solenoid by removing the starter cable. Then I read the voltage of the battery with key off. Then I placed my volt meter across the negative terminal of the battery and the starter side of the solenoid. I turned the key on and pressed the starter button and read the voltage again. I don't remember the voltage at each point, but I do remembe that I lost 3v to 3.5v.

Is that a normal drop in voltage?

[cywelchjr]

Ok Mr. Microphone Man

In anticipation of what I think my next problem will be, is it possible to get inside an OEM solenoid?

As mentioned earlier I did a test on the solenoid by removing the starter cable. Then I read the voltage of the battery with key off. Then I placed my volt meter across the negative terminal of the battery and the starter side of the solenoid. I turned the key on and pressed the starter button and read the voltage again. I don't remember the voltage at each point, but I do remembe that I lost 3v to 3.5v.

Is that a normal drop in voltage?

Sounds like right around what Larry reports on his working bike. I haven't checked on mine, but if it cranks well, you should be good.

[Larrym]

Post Mort-em Actions

Ok Mr. Microphone Man

In anticipation of what I think my next problem will be, is it possible to get inside an OEM solenoid?

As mentioned earlier I did a test on the solenoid by removing the starter cable. Then I read the voltage of the battery with key off. Then I placed my volt meter across the negative terminal of the battery and the starter side of the solenoid. I turned the key on and pressed the starter button and read the voltage again. I don't remember the voltage at each point, but I do remembe that I lost 3v to 3.5v.

Is that a normal drop in voltage?

Provided that the measurements were taken with the starter cable removed from the starter side of the solenoid with the meter leads placed as you describe...

Not by any means. Period. The solenoid when engaged should provide a dead short (or as close to a perfect connection..) between the two lugs. If you read a voltage drop without a large current flowing and only the trivial amount needed for the meter to do it's job then there's a problem in the solenoid.

Apparently. I'm usually anal retentive enough to perform the test at least twice to confirm/reproduce the readings. (Part of an officially recognized troubleshooting "redundancy" method so that valid info from testing is used to make the official decisions.. As a bonus it bolsters the self-esteem of anyone who really is anal about stuff..)

Test again and if it's truly a fail then it's dead already and a good candidate for "exploratory" disassembly/repair/reassembly. I haven't done that myself but there was a post of someone doing just that and achieving a working solenoid.

After all if it's officially a dead component then with the odds being 50/50 of achieving a working solenoid then maybe even in death the solenoid can be of value.

You're don't get squeamish/light-headed around burned contacts, carbon, and component Guts, do you??

[Larrym]

Robert's Rules of Order

Mashermoto,

Cool to consider different options/strategies at this point but.....

As a point of order in the troubleshooting process it's important to take care of old business before actually moving on to new business. Getting the new battery takes everything back to square one where the same function/voltage tests need to be done but this time with a known good battery. (IMO...but other members of your virtual pit crew may differ..)

Twists and turns...dead ends....ups and downs....back to the start and running just to keep still.

No wonder Alice always had that confused look on her face.

[Mashermoto]

I did actually do the test twice and got the same result.

As Paul Harvey used to say...and now the rest of the story.

After my second attempt the solenoid acted as though it was stuck in the off position. In other words it wouldn't work when I pressed the button. My lights would slightly dim, but no contact at the solenoid. It could just be coincidence that the battery just happened to be low enough to not even power the solenoid But I didn't think it would hurt the solenoid to do this test without a load on it.

I'll search for that post about a solenoid disassembly. I think the trick might be that you have to un-solder the wire leads to the coil.

Nope, not afraid of exploratory work...that's how we learn about stuff like this. If it still won't work with a good battery, I'll prep the patient for surgery

[joceiphus]

God's selonoid, Baby!

[Mashermoto]

Ah hah

You do have to un-solder the coil wires:

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24176&highlight=solenoid

I hope this solenoid is bad because I'm itching to open it up

[Larrym]

Pins and Needles

From Ren/Stimpy: SPACE MADNESS

(Stimpy marches back and forth, staring at the button.) ANNOUNCER Oh, how long can trusty Cadet Stimpy hold out? How can he possibly resist the diabolical urge to push the button that could erase his very existence? Will his tortured mind give in to its uncontrollable desires?

(Announcer grabs Stimpy, forces him closer to button) Can he resist the temptation to push the button that, even now, beckons him ever closer? Will he succumb to the maddening urge to eradicate history? At the MERE... PUSH... of a SINGLE... BUTTON! The beeyootiful SHINY button! The jolly CANDY-LIKE button! Will he hold out, folks? CAN he hold out?

STIMPY NO I CAN'T!!! EEEEEYAAAHHHH! (pushes button)



(Alarms go off. Ren, Stimpy, and Announcer stand around table w/ button.) ANNOUNCER Tune in next week, as... (Flash, explosion as they all disappear.)

[joceiphus]

Was that not the best show EVAR?

[3Phase]

... is it possible to get inside an OEM solenoid?

Yes it's possible. As you suspected there are two short wires that keep the top from coming off when you remove the screws. If they're not broken you have to de-solder them to get the top off of the solenoid. If they're broken the solenoid won't work or it will work intermittently, like when you put test leads on it to find out why your bike won't start.

This is what the solenoid looks like inside with the top cover and plunger removed.

... removing the starter cable ... I don't remember the voltage at each point, but I do remembe that I lost 3v to 3.5v.

Is that a normal drop in voltage?

No, it's not normal. If it's not another random case of, "Oops, I measured the voltage drop again and it's fine now!" then the internal contacts are worn and corroded. Unfortunately you have to de-solder the two solenoid coil wires to get the top off to clean the contacts.

Getting the two wires back in their holes and re-soldered isn't easy and takes some patience. It might be easier to get another solenoid.


Regards,

Scott

[clcorbin]

You are absolutely correct! I was thinking about what happens to an induction motor when you decrease the voltage to it, even under a fairly trivial load to decrease the motor speed. I'll claim the excuse that my fingers fired before my brain did! But either way, my statement was wrong and your rebuttal was very through.

Sorry, not true. Any electric motor, whether it's AC or DC, operates on the same basic principles. If you calculate current draw for the Yammy starter assuming it's 'purely resistive' using the service manual figures, what you'll come up with is this:

It's series wound, so you add the field and armature numbers: .007 + .01 = .017 ohms. Plug this into the equation and you get I=12/.017. This comes out to over 700 amps! I don't think that little battery and skimpy wiring can deliver that....

The factor that makes it all work is impedance, or more specifically, inductive reactance. This is also measured in ohms, and would be added to the circuit resistance. This also increases with frequency (in this case, motor rpms), so the faster the motor spins, the more impedance i.e. 'resistance' you have. Larry got about 80-90 amps in his test, so using R=V/I, you get: 12/90=.133 ohms. This is almost 8 times the 'measured' amount, and the difference is the impedance. As a side note, this also limits maximum motor rpm, so you can't have a 'runaway' motor.

Another way to look at this is via the 'power' equations, and this will show why current goes up for a given load if voltage goes down. One HP = 746 watts. So to produce 1 hp with 12v; P/V=I, or 746/12=62.16 amps. Lower the voltage, amps go up; 746/9=82.88 amps. So good connections become very important if they're reducing the voltage to the load.

How much HP does the starter motor produce? Using Larry's numbers, just a bit less than 1.1KW, which is very typical of a big-bore bike starter.

I'm not trying to bust anybody's chops here, but a lot of you seem eager to spend Mashermoto's money before he's eliminated all the possibilities; I've never seen throwing money at a problem as being the best way to go about it...

'78E original owner