Ignition Advance on 82 (Aussie)

[Stoffa]

Hi All - this is my first post for my first XS11. Only recently purchased in fair condition but with carb diaphram holes. Now repaired I found that I could only rev to about 4K max. Stock static looks about 5 BTDC, the Vacuum advance works (but not smoothly) to about 25d only. There are NO mechanical advance weights and it does not look like there has been any.
The bike is not standard - '78 carbs anyway.

So, did the last of the line have a solid state advance built into the igniter?
I dont have the model (1w? I think) but 5/82 Aus, nor the igniter info.

My plan is to buy an advance and try it.
From ebay pics the rotary trigger is just a fine spike - on mine it is about a cm long?

Thanks in advance - for your thoughts.
stoff

[Larrym]

Advance and Be Counted

Stoffa,

Hullo and congrats on the "new" bike. I'm on the other side of the equator but there are other members way closer who'll prob'ly chime in later.

To answer your question: Yes. The later models did incorporate the advance into the electronics. At least according to this, (just scroll down the page a bit for the two different TCI units..):

http://home.ptd.net/~theragos/tci%20faq's.htm

As far as buying the extra TCI, my opinion is that you can't go wrong in acquiring any hard to find and vital parts. Just be sure the TCI is an exact match to what you have and what you need.

The problem with the engine running at 4K only might be any number of different issues and the last time someone reported in with a similar issue the replacing the TCI wasn't the solution to the problem.

You can use the <search> function here on the site and get loads of info from previous posts. Try to find Posts with similar problems and how the owners went through the troubleshooting process. Then of course, you can provide us with what you're finding/seeing in greater detail.

Or.....just wait a little longer and others who've participated in threads/posts where your particular symptom was diagnosed and cured.

Unfortunately that doesn't appear to be me...

[Stoffa]

Thanks for the Link LarryM.
My Cycleserv manual did not get later than the early version.
It seems that I do have the later TCI (4RO) as it has the foil sticker on it. (Model TID 14-07 5H4-10 on the foil)

But the wiring has had alterations made..?!

so further investigation will be required, but at least I now know that the TCI should control advance.
Thanks heaps

[Larrym]

Know Before You Go

Stoffa,

Glad it was of use and got you started in the right direction.

I'm not that familiar with the Overseas (I know that's a relative viewpoint..) models but your signature says that you've got an 82 XS1100H. Your bike just may be an 81 XS1100H according the following link:

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=396

You'd have to compare the serial numbers of your frame and engine with the info provided. If it is indeed an 81 year then the following link may have downloadable manuals which might have more complete electrical info than the CycleServ:

http://www.ringler.us/family/mybike.html

Could help with figuring out the why and how of those alterations.

[CatatonicBug]

Welcome to the forum! As Larry said, the "H" model is from '81. The only truly "Aussie" model is the "RH", but that was in '81 as well. In '82, they switched them to the XJ.

The only exception to that is the 2H9-14XXXX and the 5H4 (Police) serial numbers.

[mro]

Hi ya stoff,

How about posting a pic of the advance mechanism,
and a few of the bike too

mro

[melbxs]

Hey Stoffa, where in Aus? There are known owners in many places around Aus. I'm in Melbourne.

Get the frame and engine numbers off your bike. The first 3 characters will tell us what it is.

5N5 is an RH. Mine wouldn't rev much above 4k and it was the old coils and leaky HT leads. Easily fixed.

There is also a vaccum advance under the gear side crankcase cover. If that is disconnected or blocked then it wouldn't help. Also make sure that the tube from the advance is connected directly to the carb body on no.2 carb rather than to the carb rubber - makes a big difference.

There's also a famously common problem with broken pickup coil wires that is relatively easily fixed. There is a full set of instructions in the fixes or mods sections. That would cause a problem similar to yours.

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=543

This is an RH:

[TopCatGr58]

Hey there Stoffa,

Welcome and congrats on your machine. Okay, so we know it has the 4RO TCI, which incorporates the Cent. Adv. curve into it's programming. The Vacuum advance/retard unit is more for driveability/civility in running at cruising rpms and such, and isn't actually responsible or needed for being able to take the engine up to redline rpms. Max adv for POWER curve under load is about 25 to 30 degrees BTDC. A member on here put a 4RO TCI on his XJ...the XJ has both cent. and vac. adv curves built into it's TCI. Anyways, his bike ran fine with plenty of power to redline WITHOUT the vac. adv. unit!

So....first, you'll want to do some other simple diagnostics, like is it hitting on ALL 4 cylinders....spritz water on header pipes and check for sizzle and immediate vaporizing of water from pipe vs. dribbling down pipe!

Also, you state it has 78 carbs. A few things to check, are you using the OEM airbox? In the USA, the later model bikes had same style airbox, BUT the float bowl vent tubes that the little upper tubes from the carbs plugged into on the airbox were CLOSED/Capped....not vented! Yamaha put the bowl vents into the intake bells on the later carbs, but left the nipples molded into the airbox, just didn't drill them!
The upper "T" connectors are VENTED, the lower "T" are the fuel inlets!

IF you are using aftermarket air filters...ie. pods...that can also cause restriction of the air flow at the inlet bells, and cause excessive richness, flooding, etc.! What do your spark plugs look like, black and sooty or bleach white, or nice tan/gray!?

Check the wire connectors at the TCI for corrosion, etc., clean and such. On Randy's webpages, he also shows about resweating the solder joints on the TCI .....IF you are not getting fire on all 4 cyinders, loosing either 1-4 or 2-3, AND you have eliminated the pickup coil wires, ignition high tension coils/leads as a possible problem to the loss of cylinders.

There is info in the manuals about being able to check the TIMING with a light, without the vac. adv., at 5200 you should see max timing to one of the other marks on the timing plate which would indicate the 25-30 degrees of max programmed cent. adv.

[Stoffa]

Questions, questions, answers, answ...

Hi boys - I live in North east Victoria, in the hills.
The XS is plated 5/82 and is a 3X1 - serial. The bike has a 4-1 exaust and would only rev to 4K. I have cleaned the carbs installed new diaphrams and kits - floats bench set , but not checked. Replaced the Coils (evidence that these swapped) and leads with black MikesXS (good). Still runs to 4K!

She runs on all 4 now and starts instantly. Only checked one plug - dark gray.
OK to ride to 120 KMH but at 11k/l (30 MPG)

What I have found is that the reluctor has no mechanical advance, the pickup coils are ok, even if one wire was pinched under a locking tab.
Ignition is set at about 5 BTDC, Vacuum advance moves it to say 25 BTDC.
Now with the pickup cover off and the MANUAL advance (finger on the pickup coil plate) I can push out to its maximum (WHOOOSH) but I have to grab for the bars - to get around that next corner! (dont have too many straight roads here... hmmm I could tie a piece of string to that plate.) Can rev to near redline pushing the plate.
I run out of hands (and the timing plate only has static 5/8 BTDC marks) I think the advance runs out to 30ish BTDC. Vacuum only takes it to 25.

Checked out Larrym's advice and pulled the TCI (model marked on the bottom too - also from a wrecker) and uncovered the printed cct. No evidence of the advance chip (good as its not working!) so even though the TCI is marked with the metal file model number is not an advance 4R0 type.
The connections onto the circuit board have been resoldered but all look OK.

Now, I have sourced a mechanical advance set from US EBAY to try.

Did not check the breathers into the standard AC setup - but they are plugged into it.

I will get to photos if I can but I will have to prepare to ride to the coast for our annual "fish n chip run" as a practice before heading to the Ulysses Club AGM in Western Australia on Monday (have not even checked the trailer wheels yet, nor loaded the wifes cosmetics...) so a sojourn of 5 weeks and 10,000+ kms..

[CatatonicBug]

Assuming your Serial continues on with 3X1-003, that makes it an '81 XS1100H, specific to Oceana.

5º BTDC to 25º is exactly spec according to the manual. I have no idea what the problem might be though...

[DGXSER]

30 MPG is a little low for milage unless you do alot of "playing" (heavy right handed riding). The 81 model removed the mech advance and built it into the TCI. the 4RO TCI has the mech advance built into it, the 2H7 does not. the 10M from the XJ model has both mech and vac advance built into the TCI.

[melbxs]

Stoffa

I'd suggest you try another TCI from a bike that you know works well.

Maybe I can help out next time I am up in Wangaratta.

Drop me a PM and I'll swap numbers with you.

[Larrym]

Push-me-pull-you

Stoffa,

With the lack of a mechanical advance unit on the bike and the non 4RO TCI which doesn't advance the timing either, it makes sense that the engine can't rev up like normal. The timing has to be advanced one way or the other as the rpms increase or it'll fall flat.

Oddly enough the vacuum advance doesn't help things when there's no mechanical/electrical advance. It works by advancing the timing when you let off the throttle (High Vacuum=More Advance) and retarding the timing when you accelerate (Low vacuum=Less Advance). But all this hinges on the presence of already advanced timing due to the mechanical/electrical advance unit. These two different mechanisms fight back and forth as the throttle is twisted/rpms increase or decrease. Without the mechanical/electrical advance the vacuum "advance" always wins the battle hands down when you twist the throttle and so the timing is forever retarded. Unless of course you let off the gas then it advances the timing. But correct me if I'm wrong: we need to twist the throttle to go at anything faster than an idle. What a vicious cycle. (No wonder the bike was "slow" heheheh....)

The tell tale for me was your road test acrobatics where you moved the timing plate by hand. That's exactly the type of thing I'd have done to know if advancing the timing made a difference.

There have been people that have made the swap and installed the older TCI where the newer one should have been. IIRC they had to change some of the wiring in the TCI plugs on the bike's side of things to make it work. I'd strongly recommend that you examine/verify your current connections/pins/wires and if need be change them to OEM before plugging in the new(RARE/EXPENSIVE) 4RO unit.

That's where a pic is worth a lot. What you've got presently and possibly what other members with functioning 4RO TCIs can send to you.

[petejw]

hey stoffa,
welcome aboard,
Tc makes a good point regarding the vent tubes
on the early model carbs, if the airbox is original
to the bike, the outlets on the air box will be blocked off.


also is the vac adv holding vacuum?

is there anything written on the tci to identify it?


my rh parts bike is plated 1/83, with an engine no; 995,
even tho they were released here in 81 i think they
kept plating them till they ran out of stock.