One really worn 2nd Gear

[CatatonicBug]

I won't say who, but I am helping another XSive with the 2nd gear fix, and figured it would be about a 6-hour job, start-to-finish. The bike arrived today, and I started opening things up. I'm pretty sure that this was the first time it had ever been opened up, because of the lack of bends in the clutch nut keeper, and all the original wiring clamps were still in their original spots.

Anyway, I finally got to the countershaft, and, to my amazement, 2nd gear was just wobbling on the shaft!



I finally got it out, and found out that 2nd gear looked like this:



The spacer that goes between the circlip and 2nd gear is actualy welded to the gear!



Needless to say, the shaft is damaged as well. We are waiting on parts from Andreas, and we'll be back in business soon, but I wanted to share this as an example of what happens when a PO continues to drive with the 2nd gear issue without repairing it...

[MeatTooth]

HOLY CRAP! That is amazing they are lucky it didn't come apart and shell the whole thing.

[xs11bobber]

Perhaps a picture of what 2nd gear is supposed to look like would help a lot of people, like myself, out in determining whether or not their 2nd gear has had the fix done by the PO. That is, in the case that one is taking it apart. JAT

[DGXSER]

Hey Bobber,

Look in the tech tips under dremel repair for 2nd gear. Lots of pics of parts before and after. Lets just say what Bug was holding in that pic represents an amazing amount of wear and torture to those gears.

Found some on my photobucket account. Here is my 2nd gear that was causign the slipping problem already before I dremel cut the bevel into it.



And after cutting, yes, I am not a machinist or artist but 4,000 miles later still holding strong.




What is astounding is how that gear which does not move in normal transmission operation and is meshed with another gear above it could possible have wobbled that much without tearing up something else like the bearings of the countershaft, oe the main shaft or its mating gear. If it were me, I would be looking at those bearings carefully. Either way, that is one fubar gear.

[wingnut]

Bug just for discussion sake, how many mile are on that bike? Any evidence of lack of lubrication like bluing on the shafts or bearings? Was the owner just bypassing second gear while riding for a length of time? What did the shift fork look like? I've seen that look in planetary gear assemblies on turbine engine gear boxes but it was usually the result of lots of hours of operation. That had to be making a ton of noise and vibration. My guess is that it finally wore thru the case harden and deteriorated very quickly after that.

[skids]

The weird thing to me is that the slot edges are worn on BOTH sides. That could only happen from wobble on the shaft. Maybe the gears were never hardened or something...

[trbig]

You'll wear one side on acceleration and the other side on decel. You can get a 2nd gear skip for both which wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with the wobble, but was probably helping it hit in this case. This one was obviously grinding both directions.


What do the dogs on 5th gear look like? I bet they're just as wiped out.


Tod

[CatatonicBug]

What do the dogs on 5th gear look like? I bet they're just as wiped out.

Surprisingly, they aren't too bad. Obviously a bit rounded, but no more than I would have expected for a gear that just needed the classic 2nd gear fix.

The shaft was torn up, and the center gear (the lower one in my very first picture above) won't turn on the shaft as long as the circlip and washer are installed. There was obviously some pressure/heat on the circlip that wore on the groove, and it actually bent the ears away from the gear. I didn't find any other wear and there was no metal in the oil pan. Even the oil pump idle gear still had it's 2 washers and circlip still installed!

As far as the owner goes, the bike is new to him, and the PO sold it to him saying that "it runs, but the carbs are all gummed up". After buying it and cleaning the carbs, it starts great but had a "rattle". I have yet to hear it run myself, but I think the PO let the problem with the carbs hide the tranny problem so he could sell it. I would imagine the PO just kept shoving it into 2nd for years and never bothered to look into fixing it. He then let it sit until the carbs gummed up enough that he no longer had interest in fixing it. I'm just glad that the bike made it into the hands of someone who cares enough to get it fixed.

[Ivan]

If the seller says, " it runs but...." He is just trying to tell you he really knows why it doesn't run but doesn't want to look stupid telling you how he cratered it. I really get tired of being lied to to get money out of me.

Anyhoot, I am glad the scoot is getting the necessary care to get on the road.

[thewright1]

I've been reading through the tips on how to fix the second gear issue. Is it necessary to flip your bike over? Also, do you guys find that it's a difficult to task to fix the second gear? Last but not least, where on Earth would I find a second gear replacement if needed?

thank in advance!

[Pat Kelly]

You can flip the bike, pull the motor, or (in my case) do it in the frame with the bike rightsideup and lay underneath it.

[CatatonicBug]

IMHO, flipping the bike just seems like a whole lot of extra work. I don't have a center stand, so I have done it at least 4 times on the side stand. Center stand kinda makes it easier though.

It was the first major thing I did to my bike, and it was the first transmission I had EVER done. Took most of a Saturday, all by myself. Now, if everything goes smoothly, I could do it myself in about 6 hours. It takes some patience, and attention to detail, but it's definitely not hard to do.

If you really needed to replace gears, member andreashweiss might have a set available.

[DGXSER]

I've been reading through the tips on how to fix the second gear issue. Is it necessary to flip your bike over?

Not at all necessary. I can see wher eit would make it alot easier honestly, but I have done it three times (on three different bikes) and never flipped one yet. I do it on the centerstand.

Also, do you guys find that it's a difficult to task to fix the second gear?

Well, difficult is a very subjective thing. I was a bit freaked out the first tiem I did it as I had never dug that deep into a bike before. But with help and guidance fo the many XSively incredibly smart folks here like Bikerphil and XSPastor, DiverRay and others, I got through it with flying colors. Now it is kind of like medicine, See one, do one, teach one. only skipping the see one step unless you count the tech tip! It does not even phase me now to tear the gears out and put it all back in.

Don't get me wrong, getting it all back in is never as simple as bolting on a new piece, some part of it WILL fight back and not want to go in easy. But it will eventually all give in.

Last but not least, where on Earth would I find a second gear replacement if needed?

You can find the gears on line brand new. Already back cut as the tech tip shows you to do to them. Some folks prefer to buy those instead of doing the dremel work themselves. I am just to cheap and opt to cut my own gears. The new ones are about $100 each and it takes two to fix 2nd or 1st. 2nd gear meshes with 5th gear so you need to buy both for that set to work right, same with 1st and 4th. So to fix them all it would be about $400. The $40 worth of dremel bits I bought for the first round has lasted me through the others as well.

[thewright1]

Not at all necessary. I can see wher eit would make it alot easier honestly, but I have done it three times (on three different bikes) and never flipped one yet. I do it on the centerstand.



Well, difficult is a very subjective thing. I was a bit freaked out the first tiem I did it as I had never dug that deep into a bike before. But with help and guidance fo the many XSively incredibly smart folks here like Bikerphil and XSPastor, DiverRay and others, I got through it with flying colors. Now it is kind of like medicine, See one, do one, teach one. only skipping the see one step unless you count the tech tip! It does not even phase me now to tear the gears out and put it all back in.

Don't get me wrong, getting it all back in is never as simple as bolting on a new piece, some part of it WILL fight back and not want to go in easy. But it will eventually all give in.



You can find the gears on line brand new. Already back cut as the tech tip shows you to do to them. Some folks prefer to buy those instead of doing the dremel work themselves. I am just to cheap and opt to cut my own gears. The new ones are about $100 each and it takes two to fix 2nd or 1st. 2nd gear meshes with 5th gear so you need to buy both for that set to work right, same with 1st and 4th. So to fix them all it would be about $400. The $40 worth of dremel bits I bought for the first round has lasted me through the others as well.

Woo man, $400 is out for me, I'll just try cutting mine up. I'll be working on it next Saturday, I'm gonna take the center stand route. What's the deal with the jacks, are those only good for changing tires? It seems like you wouldn't be able to do anything under the bike with a jack sitting under it.

[DGXSER]

I have never owned a jack (for a motorcycle or named my child that , I have a couple for cars) so I have no idea. I can see where it might be hard to work around. I have thought about putting the bike up on my car ramps, and buidling up a wooden blocking system to go under the centerstand to keep it upright for this repair. Never got around to it and just done them all on the centerstand.