I'm in need of a good spin

[XS1100 Newbie]

That thing must be possesed! I have not had to pull my starter, but is it possible it has a bad block casing where it mounts, and needs to be shimmed like a GM? I don't know if that is even possible on these bikes. Just a thought. I also would be curious what the starter draw is in relation to what the book calls for.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Steptoe,

You say locked up? You push the starter button and NOTHING?? You let it run till HOT/warmed up, I'm assuming idling. That drains the battery. Did you try a jumper battery? IF the engine still freely spins with a "spanner", then it seems to come back to electrical.

I'm also assuming that you didn't take the jugs off the pistons, just the bottom end to get to the bearings/end caps. I've heard that if there isn't enough ring end gap, as the engine heats up, the pistons get TIGHT and can be much harder to spin to restart once warm/hot!? JAT!?

Here's hoping for the best, easiest of problems!
T.C.

[Larrym]

Stephen King: Christine??

Is your house (or your garage..) built on an old aborigine burial ground??

I agree: Mechanical or electrical problem.

If the engine spins freely by hand then you can rule out the major mechanical since I'm sure that you do your rebuilds right the first time. That still leaves the starter clutch as something to look into. IIRC the consensus is that the engine cases have to be split in order to get at it/replace it.

Back to the original "hard to spin with the starter" symptom: I'd also like to know what an ammeter would read during the crank test. If the starter has to work too hard against something which is binding then the starter would draw more than the normal current. If the starter isn't getting the juice it needs then it would also turn slowly.

In both cases what you could see with the naked eye and hear with your own ears would be very similar. Only one way to see inside that wire to know what's going on:





It looks like this when it's all ready for the test:




Photos fall short on showing what goes on so here's a video:



Ok so the amp reading from the smaller/lower scale peaked out but really didn't "bend the needle". I'd say that the current is between 80-90 Amps on a functioning starter.

Would be very interesting to see what happens with your problem child. Those inductive ammeters are available online for less than $20.00 USD. I could send you a couple links to some sites and you could see if any ship worldwide or are in your area.

[Steptoe]

not sure

have taken the plugs out this arv, and the motor spins over super quick{ am using a car battery}
put the plugs back in all I get is part of a turn and lock

I,ll put in here the start button is gone so am arching the solenoid

with the lock up there is instant heat with poles joined,,with no plugs there's no prob.

what gets me is initial wind over was great,,how do you go from great, to less than ordinary in 3 mins

how many parts are in the start system that would effect what we're talking about,that haven't been replaced
starter motor,,starter leads,,T.C.I. box,,exciter plate, at the crank,,starter solenoid,,battery,, with all these replaced/swapped, still no change but no ill effect on the other bike

the only thing not replaced are the coils but they work,,what effect would the reg/rectifier have if any

the motor went back together with no problem at all,every thing was oiled before being put in situ
all new bearings had movement after been torqued down, no drag at all

it can't be mechanical,,it has to be electrical,,,surely I don't have to swap wiring harnesses do I

[XS1100 Newbie]

The fact that the motor turns freely with the plugs out, brings me back to the timing issue. When the plugs are in, and the wires connected, if the timing was off, it could fire wrong, and cause what seems to be a lockup. Also be very carefull with that starter, as all starters are only intermitant motors. Let it cool after cranking for any amount of time, or you will be needing another starter.

[Larrym]

Poking around in the Woodpile??

"it can't be mechanical,,it has to be electrical,,,surely I don't have to swap wiring harnesses do I"

Ok mate, we'll go with electrical until something proves otherwise.

Just a notion to consider as long as we're in the idea stage:

Wires and cables are just that. Pieces of copper with lugs or with connectors on the ends. But when high current flows through them it's useful to see them in a different way. They can act as a resistor if the wire isn't thick enough or if there's a corroded wire-to-lug/lug to frame or connection post. The way a resistor works is to limit current by dissipating the energy in the form of heat. The additional heat causes even more resistance. The resistance causes more heat. This is called "Thermal Runaway".

In the end the current can be limited so badly that the starter doesn't get the current/power to turn at a spritely rate. But at the beginning the whole she-bang might spin over just like it should.

It's not like the starter would fail initially to turn at all and directly lead us to find the bad wire/cable. (Wouldn't that be nice...) Or maybe the resistance in the cable/contact might get hot enough to melt the insulation or a least have the courtesy to smoke a little so we could follow our noses to the offending part. Nope. What if it was in that in-between/gray area where there was no clear indicators to show what was wrong or where to go??

You've visually looked at and checked the positive side of the starting circuit. Ok. I'd suggest that we do something to give the negative side a pass/fail test.

The Redundant Ground

If you take a set of automotive jumper cables you can connect them in a manner which will bypass all the regular grounding/negative cables an contacts. Place one of the negative/black colored jumper cable ends on the bike's negative battery terminal. Place the other end of the same negative/black colored jumper cable on to the engine in a good spot. No need to do anything with the red/positive jumper cable ends at all.

Try to crank the starter again. If it cranks like it's supposed to time after time again and again then the odds are high that somewhere in the grounding/negative side of the starting/battery circuit you have a skunk hiding. You can remove the jumper cables and see if the original problem reproduces itself.

A simple test which would tend to rule out anything wonky on the electrical/negative side of things. Way easier than swapping out a wiring harness to find your one skunk hiding in the woodpile.

BTW I'm definitely on XS1100 newbie's side regarding taking it easy on the starter and allowing no less than 30 seconds rest between crankings of less than 3 or 4 seconds.

HTH.

[cywelchjr]

On the grounding thing, make sure that the ground strap from the middle drive to the frame is in good condition. It can cause slow starter turnover. DAMHIK.

Things can really get to suck when your ground goes through the exhaust (which will work BTW, I put over 4000 miles on like that).

[kta]

I had this exact same problem on another bike. Did just as you did, cleaned the starter, swapped out all sorts of things. Problem ended up being the grounding cable from the battery to the frame. Connections were good and clean, but when I cut the sheath the wires inside were all corroded. Took off the ground, replaced it temporarily with a jumper cable - VA VOOOM! problem solved.

I know you said you checked cables - but check again. If the starter is good (as tested when swapped to the other bike) then the power to the starter is bad.

[Steptoe]

Problem solved

it took some doing but we.re FIXED,,,

I went back next morning all prept to remove the motor and swap starter clutch,,{I also have a spare one of them too},,anyway I thought I'll pull my spare one down first and have a real close look at it,

I initially pulled it out because of the amount of slips before it would grab and spin the motor,and the condition of the cush plates were very loose{ not an issue but not 100%}

having gone over it and deciding there was no way that it create the problem I have without having very obvious wear and lots of it, I left the motor alone.the one in the motor was original condition still.

not exactly sure of my next move I decided to grab a spanner and turn the motor backwards a couple of times,with no real idea what it will achieve except maybe unlock some thing {pretty much clutching at straws}

I hooked up the batt again, crossed the poles and instant fire and run {full choke,forgot that bit} scared the bejesus out of me

20 seconds later sudden shut down,, pulled the plugs, no spark
first thought was broken wire at exciters,,swapped them no diff, swapped back,,still had the batt hooked up,moved my head in time to see the main fuse wire in the fuse box changing condition,,ripped off the batt, AND just happened to grab the handle bars at the kill switch to re balance myself,, THE BLOODY SWITCH WAS HOT, blew the main fuse so grabbed the signal fuse to keep going.

pull the switch apart, full of gunk, cleaned it up but left it out of the equation,,{wired the connectors together,} WE HAVE SPARK AGAIN,, put the plugs back in, crossed the poles,,we have a laboured wind again but it started and ran

by this time the fella that owns it shows up just after I'd turned it off,, wires every where, the old girl doesn't look at all normal,, so I says "I'll start it for you so it's proven to run",, no start, no spark again,, we spend the next 20 mins just looking at it.

he asked me why the oil and neutral light weren't on,, no fuse, grabbed one out of my bike,, crossed the poles, fired and ran, straight up

THIS IS WHEN WE FOUND THE PROB,, every time I moved the fuse plate,because we were crossing the poles, the wire in the bottom fuse holder moved in the crimp,,it wasn't till now that I'd seen it, whether heating the wire up extenuated the movement or not I don't know,, we crimped the wire again then soldered,,, problem solved

the bike now try's to throw it's self out of the frame when starting and runs first fire..

THE MORAL OF THIS STORY

check the obvious, yep,, but also check the not so obvious,, any thing that has a wire or a connection to do with start or run

when 516 arrived at my place,it wouldn't run,,TCI was suspect,was sent to Randy via a big bird for surgery,, pronounced dead,, so a 2H7 box with mechanical advance has been fitted. the wire prob has been with him for a long time but is now fixed, there was no start button now has one, had a mirriad of dirty connections that have now been cleaned, carbs have been pulled down and cleaned and patched, intake boots have been covered with a non hardening silastic and paper gaskets against the motor,,,

all I hope now is the 2H7 system will allow him to refit the chair and not pre- ignite with the extra load,,


I thank you all for ideas and suggestions thru out this ordeal, and maybe one day I can return a helpfull tip that will fix someones problem.

[XS1100 Newbie]

That is great news. I am glad you found the problem, and i just bet that it will help others experiencing similar problems.

[Larrym]

Who Do Voodoo??

I'm glad it was something tangible.

I was almost beginning to embrace the supernatural possibilities for the bike's behavior/symptoms.

I mean Stephen King has written so many books on that stuff that I figure he had to be drawing from someone's real life experiences.