grinding noises in the gears

[trbig]

Well.. since there's no way for it to float back and forth due to the splines on the shaft being up against the bearings, I suggest you replace your bearings before using those motors..


Tod

[3Phase]

Well.. since there's no way for it to float back and forth due to the splines on the shaft being up against the bearings, I suggest you replace your bearings before using those motors..

Tod

Tod, of course there's a way for the drive axle to float -- it is designed to float until shimmed correctly and held in position by Bolt #28. The Yamaha TSB about shimming the drive axle over to the left to fix 2nd and 5th gear engagement depth works without expanding the engine case or pressing out the bearings because the drive axle is designed to float. I suggest you replace your bearings before using that motor.


Regards,

Scott

[trbig]

Well.. explain to me how it's going to float with the splines up against a bearing, and how you'd change a washer's thickness and still get the spring clips into the grooved notches on the shaft when the spacing is exact already.


Tod

[3Phase]

Well.. explain to me how it's going to float with the splines up against a bearing, and how you'd change a washer's thickness and still get the spring clips into the grooved notches on the shaft when the spacing is exact already.


Tod

You do know that it's easier do it than it is to type it out and "Measuring Drive Axle Side Play" in Yamaha TSB M85-13 explains how and why.

You don't have to remove any clips and the spacing isn't exact until it's shimmed, Bolt #28 is torqued and the left side bearing and its housing[1] are installed, then you measure the gear spacing/end play and re-shim or lace up the case.

Drive Axle #14 splines are not what's held against the inner race of Bearing #31, it's the raised center boss on Middle Drive Gear #30. Add shims/washers to both ends of the axle to decrease end play; add a thicker shim on one end to move the axle to the right or to the left.

In sequence:
Bolt #28 and Washer#32 tighten against the outer side of the inner race of Bearing #31, pulling Drive Axle #14 to the right through the center of the inner race of Bearing #31.

As Bolt #28 is tightened and Drive Axle #14 is drawn to the right it brings the center boss of Middle Drive Gear #30, 1st gear Collar #16, Washer #17 and Clip #18 along with it.

When the center boss of Middle Drive Gear #30 is up against the inner side of the inner race of Bearing #31 it can move no further and Bolt #28 will draw everything together as it is torqued.

If everything is shimmed correctly it's all one big, happy, assembly. If not, gears will hit one another or will not fully engage.

To check it out, tighten Bolt #28, then remove the left (shifter side) bearing housing and the bearing. The drive axle will remain held in place and will turn the inner race of the right side bearing, Bearing #31.


Whew!


Regards,

Scott

1. The left side bearing housing is item #3 and the left side bearing itself is item #4 in the 1982 XJ1100J "Crankcase" parts diagram on the Yamaha web site.

[trbig]

OK.. Let's bring this pic back up for reference.





Now here's a complete set of gears situated the same direction as the picture.





Here's a shot of the right end and 5th gear. Notice that when it is engaged into 2nd gear as it is here, that the gear comes nowhere near the end of the splines. That'll be important here in a minute.





And here's the other side of the shaft with the middle gear drive gear NEAR the end of the shaft, but the splines stick out slightly further. You can see the smooth part of the shaft that goes into the bearings on both ends.





Now we slide off the middle drive gear...





Then 1st gear and it's race/bearing it rides on... and what you have left is the washer (#17) and the spring clip (#18)





You'll notice that these two parts, but most importantly, the washer (#17) sit in between 1st and 4th gear. If there were room (Which there isn't) to put a thicker washer on here, as has been suggested, it would increase the distance between 1st/4th gears.. meaning less contact and more chance of 1st gear getting stripped out.. which is just as big a problem as the 2nd gear problem you would be trying to fix. This is why I wouldn't suggest this fix.

You'll also note that I said IF there was room. In the next picture I removed the end gears and took out the shift forks to make it easier to see the ends of the shaft, leaving just 4th 3rd, and 2nd. Here it is sitting in the case.





I have tightened up the bearing on the shifter side and left the bolt (#28) off of the shaft. As you can see from these pictures of each side of the shaft, the shaft SPLINES are what rest against the bearing races, as I stated before. Both ends of the splines are against their respective bearings. So this statement isn't correct...

Drive Axle #14 splines are not what's held against the inner race of Bearing #31, it's the raised center boss on Middle Drive Gear #30.

So, I must say again, Scott. In order to have a free floating shaft, either you have figured out a way to get a larger piece of steel through a smaller one (Shaft splines through the bearing race) or your shaft splines and/or your bearings are messed up. I could see that over time, the bearings and shaft spline ends could see some wear that may need to be shimmed out, but I would be putting that shim between 1st gear and the middle drive gear to take up any slack. That way you aren't messing with any clearance issues between 1st and 4th gear. You'll realize a MUCH larger engagement between 2nd/5th by doing the washer swap explained in the tech pages, than you could ever hope to get from shimming the other side of the shaft by whatever means, and this wouldn't change your 1st/4th engagement distances.

Also.. this statement...

Add shims/washers to both ends of the axle to decrease end play

I would shim as I said between the middle drive and 1st gear. Shimming on the end of the shaft may block oil flow to the bearing.. as I have done in the past to the clutch shaft bearing. Just a suggestion.


Tod

[Ivan]

Anyone ever take an ASE test?

Technician A says that a thicker washer between first and fourth gears will make the second gear engage deeper, thereby resolving a shifting problem. Technician B says that the proper method is to move the second gear washer.

Who is correct?

A) Technician A, because the lambda root force divided by the bipolar decabiator will cause disassociated invection.

B) Technician B, because the oil splash ring is inclusive of the Geshwinder coil.

C) Both A and B, since they are good drinking buddies.

D Neither A or B. But they should still talk it out over a pint.

[3Phase]

So, what about CavBird?

Remember CavBird, the latest guy that has had Bolt #28 come loose and fall into the clutch cover? It lunched 2nd and 5th gears when that happened to my bike.

All of the shims listed in the Yamaha TSB say, "U.R." That's, "Use as Required," and CavBird can't post pictures so I can't see how his transmission looks. Since my transmission was lunched when Bolt #28 came loose and the drive axle floated I cannot tell CavBird or anyone else not to bother inspecting the transmission for damaged gears and excessive end play while the bike is flipped over and opened up just because Tod's transmission drive axle doesn't float when Bolt #28 falls out.

If you have to add shims to the end of the drive axle to move it left or right, leave Washer #17 alone, that's a gear spacing shim, not a axle positioning shim. Add shims to the ends of the drive axle as required the way the Yamaha TSB says to do it or leave it alone and just change the transmission parts as they break.

Dead Horse


Regards,

Scott

[trbig]

lmao... If you go back and read.. You are the one that said to change the washer (#17) to shim the shaft and I was the one that said to inspect the gears while he had it flipped.. I don't recall anyone saying NOT to check the gears..

Funny someone feels like whipping a dead horse, but can't seem to quit whipping it.


Tod

[3Phase]

Sorry, CavBird, your thread has been hijacked

lmao... If you go back and read.. You are the one that said to change the washer (#17) to shim the shaft and I was the one that said to inspect the gears while he had it flipped.. I don't recall anyone saying NOT to check the gears..

I don't think so, Scooter! I said not to do it.

Tod, I stand by my initial statement and I had almost exactly the same experience as you when I exchanged washer #17 for two half-thickness washers.

The gears are too close! Don't do it! <laughing>

Funny someone feels like whipping a dead horse, but can't seem to quit whipping it.

Funny is saying the drive axle can't float, then doing an about face back flip with a double twist and trying to argue in the other direction so this sounds like wager material to me.

I know, I know, the Yamaha TSB is wrong and Yamaha engineers were so dumb they added the unnecessary Bolt#28 and Washer #32 after wasting time and money drilling and tapping Drive Axle #14 when those drive axles can't possibly float between the end bearings and smash the gears together because the splines will save them. Just who did think they think they were anyhow, the original manufacturer?

So, I have a good a set of gears and a sixpack of cold ones for you if I'm right and I'll bet you and your non-floating drive axle with the built-in locating splines will ruin the gears right there in your driveway if you remove that unnecessary Bolt #28 or fail to torque it to 51 ft lbs.

Seriously Tod, don't even think about riding on the highway. The drive axle will float and you could be seriously injured or killed. It's just not worth it for a horse, of course.




Regards,

Scott

[Ivan]

Well, FWIW, I rode the second half of a trip to work (which turned out to be about 20 miles at highway speeds) with the bolt rattling around in my crankcase.

My gears did not seize and I lived.

When I had the bolt out for repair, the shaft floated back maybe .050, and I couldn't tell that the gears were clashing.

Worst symptom other than the hellacious noise, was that it shifted kinda weird.

[trbig]

OK.. Originally posted by Mr. 3Phase...

Changing out washer #17 for a thicker washer is the fix recommended in one of the Yamaha Technical Service Bulletins. I forget who discovered it and the website is moving at glacial speed for me at the moment, hang on... <Search Music> GNEPIG! </Search Music>


Basically, Yamaha's thicker washer fix moved the transmission drive axle over to the left a few fractions of a millimeter so that 2nd gear and its slots on the drive axle were closer to 5th gear and its dogs as positioned by the shift fork. The shift fork positions 5th gear, not the axle, and when the right side bolt #28 comes loose the axle will float inside the case.

So I'm confused.. first you say it.. now you say you said NOT to do it. Which is it?

Funny is saying the drive axle can't float, then doing an about face back flip with a double twist and trying to argue in the other direction so this sounds like wager material to me.

You either didn't read what I wrote, or you're really grasping at straws here. You mentioned moving the washer (#17) to move the shaft and 2nd gear towards 5th gear.. no wait.. no you didn't. Wait.. which was it?

I'll type this slower so maybe it will sink in. I said I replaced the washer (#17). I got two washers.. (One... two...) that were exactly half the thickness each of the original washer. (One.. two.. together equals original thickness.) Following so far? Need a second? Ok.. ready? I put one of these HALF thickness washers where the original #17 washer went. I put the other washer between 1st gear and the middle drive gear.

SO... from the bearing in the case, move with me here.. to the middle drive gear.. we're moving, we're moving... to the half thickness washer, to first gear.. stay with me almost done.. to the other half thickness washer to the circlip next to 4th gear, the spacing stayed the EXACT same.. (I'll give you a minute to go back and look at the picture...) OK.. ready for the hard part? I DIDN"T SHIM THE SHAFT AT ALL... All I did was MOVE FIRST GEAR CLOSER TO FOURTH by the distance of half that original #17 washer's thickness. By moving first gear towards 4th that distance, it made those two gears mesh.. just 1st and 4th, and had nothing to do with 2nd/5th. As a matter of fact, I could have it in neutral, rev the motor good, and it would slam into first gear! But for those wanting a little excitement in their life, they might try it. OK...got that part?

So, I have a good a set of gears and a sixpack of cold ones for you if I'm right and I'll bet you and your non-floating drive axle with the built-in locating splines will ruin the gears right there in your driveway if you remove that unnecessary Bolt #28 or fail to torque it to 51 ft lbs.

Now.. if you go back and re-read, you must have missed this part too...

I never had any gear problems when that bolt backed out on me. The bike ran fine through the gears to get me home except for that grinding sound (Clutch basket eating the bolt).

I rode the bike home (To John and Kat's) probably a good 20 miles. We rode slow and took back roads because we had no idea what the deal was besides the grinding noise, but not a problem one from the gears.

So... you want me to PM my address to you for the 6-pack and the gears?


Tod

[3Phase]

Well, FWIW, I rode the second half of a trip to work (which turned out to be about 20 miles at highway speeds) with the bolt rattling around in my crankcase.

My gears did not seize and I lived.

When I had the bolt out for repair, the shaft floated back maybe .050, and I couldn't tell that the gears were clashing.

Worst symptom other than the hellacious noise, was that it shifted kinda weird.

Ivan: It depends. I have no idea what kind of gear spacing you, Tod, Cavbird, or anyone else might have in their transmissions. The drive axle floats without Bolt #28 and it can move 1/8" to 1/4" or more. Yeah, it will shift funny for certain values of fun... I got about 50 miles before mine ate itself up.

Most of these bikes have a lot of space between the gears and that's why Yamaha and a couple of other ingenious mechanics on this site and elsewhere had to implement a variety of ways to 'fix' 2nd gear and/or 1st gear not having enough engagement, then slipping under load.

My current 2nd gear has the machine work done for two washers so I have somewhere between 0.016" and 0.020" between the 5th gear dogs and 2nd gear slots. It's a little tight. The 'stock' transmission I have sitting in front of me has more clearance but not really all that much. Yes, it's noisy when the drive axle floats and it's not immediately lethal in every single transmission in every single XS1100 made.

At the right speed it's just noisy. At exactly the wrong speed in the wrong gear the gears (usually 2nd and 5th) will try to engage and lock up for a fraction of a second. At first they'll just wear or break chips off the dogs and out of the slots because you're only part way into two gears at the same time. That's what happened to my gears. Ask Diver Ray what happens when a transmission actually does go into two gears at the same time at speed. My gears looked okay at first but after inspection I discovered that they were worn down through the hardened metal into the soft metal -- lunched.

So, (muwahahahaha!) would you like in on the gears and beers scam^H^H^H^Hbet I'm trying like heck to get going with Tod? Don't be shy, put your transmission where you've told me your 20 miles of experience led: you can take Bolt #28 out of the transmission drive axle and not worry drive axle float, noise or funny shifting; nothing bad will happen for at least 20 miles.




Regards,

Scott

[3Phase]

OK.. Originally posted by Mr. 3Phase...

Mr. .... Ut oh....

So I'm confused.. first you say it.. now you say you said NOT to do it. Which is it?

I re-read the Service Bulletin. It wasn't Washer #17 but I can't edit posts past a certain period of time so I agreed with you about changing Washer #17 in another post. If you read the TSB where is the confusion?

You either didn't read what I wrote, or you're really grasping at straws here. You mentioned moving the washer (#17) to move the shaft and 2nd gear towards 5th gear.. no wait.. no you didn't. Wait.. which was it?

I didn't. The split/move Washer #17 fix is not my 'fix'. Yamaha's TSB tells you the correct way to center and adjust the drive axle. I did the machine work on 2nd gear and split Washer #24.

I'll type this slower so maybe it will sink in. I said I replaced the washer (#17). I got two washers.. (One... two...) that were exactly half the thickness each of the original washer. (One.. two.. together equals original thickness.) Following so far? Need a second? Ok.. ready? I put one of these HALF thickness washers where the original #17 washer went. I put the other washer between 1st gear and the middle drive gear.

Uh huh, I'm with you so far. It didn't work for me either but go ahead...

SO... from the bearing in the case, move with me here.. to the middle drive gear.. we're moving, we're moving... to the half thickness washer, to first gear.. stay with me almost done.. to the other half thickness washer to the circlip next to 4th gear, the spacing stayed the EXACT same.. (I'll give you a minute to go back and look at the picture...)

I don't need the picture. I'm more than familiar with these transmissions. The picture is for CavBird and other people that have not been into the transmission so they can follow along. It's detailed and tedious enough as it is; no picture would make it almost impossible as my writing in the first couple of posts seems to have put you off -- not floating, mind, just off.

OK.. ready for the hard part? I DIDN"T SHIM THE SHAFT AT ALL... All I did was MOVE FIRST GEAR CLOSER TO FOURTH by the distance of half that original #17 washer's thickness. By moving first gear towards 4th that distance, it made those two gears mesh.. just 1st and 4th, and had nothing to do with 2nd/5th. As a matter of fact, I could have it in neutral, rev the motor good, and it would slam into first gear! But for those wanting a little excitement in their life, they might try it. OK...got that part?

Yep, I got it. 1st gear is too close. I got that. It happened to me, too, which is why I agreed with you about moving/splitting/changing Washer #17. It sucks.

Now, when Bolt #28 comes loose, 2nd and 5th gear move closer together, then separate as the unsecured transmission drive axle floats back and forth between the two case bearings.

Now.. if you go back and re-read, you must have missed this part too...

I rode the bike home (To John and Kat's) probably a good 20 miles. We rode slow and took back roads because we had no idea what the deal was besides the grinding noise, but not a problem one from the gears.

Hmm... 20 miles again. Take a look at what I wrote to Ivan. I destroyed my gears in about 50 miles. You don't have a mess of lunched gears all over your garage like I had and your bike isn't spread out all over a Murphy-turn.

So... you want me to PM my address to you for the 6-pack and the gears?

Tod

Tod, I'm nowhere near mean-spirited enough to bet someone they'll destroy their transmission while riding their bike.

You made it 20 miles so I owe you some gears and some beers. I was going to try to make Talimena in a couple so I might be able to bring them in person.


Regards,

Scott

[Ivan]

So, (muwahahahaha!) would you like in on the gears and beers scam^H^H^H^Hbet I'm trying like heck to get going with Tod?

No. I have 4 transmissions extra. I don't like beer, and what I do like to drink would probably break your bank if I were left unchecked.

While I haven't fully pondered the thickness of washer 17, the hardness of bolt 28 or the runout of the hyperbolic infragulator 28.7, I can say that in my case, the bolt coming out did not result in sudden catastrophic failure.

That is all.

[3Phase]

No. I have 4 transmissions extra. I don't like beer, and what I do like to drink would probably break your bank if I were left unchecked.

Gulp... I know I'd break my bank if I drank too much, too, no probably about it.

While I haven't fully pondered the thickness of washer 17, the hardness of bolt 28 or the runout of the hyperbolic infragulator 28.7, I can say that in my case, the bolt coming out did not result in sudden catastrophic failure.

So, as an experienced mechanic you're poking fun at me for linking to the official 1982 XJ1100J parts diagram and using the Yamaha parts nomenclature as shown on the Yamaha web site in a thread started by new member Cavbird about his 1982 XJ1100J ?

I find that odd.

That is all.

I hope so, because as I told Tod up thread: "I'm nowhere near mean-spirited enough to bet someone they'll destroy their transmission while riding their bike."

20 miles; not immediately demolished in the driveway despite the horrendous noise ... you two crack you up.


Regards,

Scott