Bizarre electrical starter glitch ...

[thewiz]

I had been riding all weekend and this morning after a hour's scoot on my F, I stopped home to check the mail. Then I jumped back on the bike to go out again ... and when I hit the starter button, the bike started right up as usual BUT THE STARTER KEPT SPINNING .... OK ... I hit the kill switch ... nothin ... turned the key off ... the bike still kept running with the starter spinning. I then tried to stall it by putting it in gear but it wouldn't stall. GEEZ ... I'm gettin real panicky by now as I began to envision the starter clutch breakin or starter frying ... quickly pulled the right side cover off and yanked all the fuses ... still spinning and running .... F@#$ !! ... quickly out of my tank bag I grabbed a tool kit and a wrench and undid a terminal on the starter relay ... finally, mercifully it shut the hell off .... all this took place over about two minutes ... but WTF?? over ...

Several months ago, I replaced the push button on the RH control and also a TC fuse box .... have had NO other electricial issues whatsoever ... sooooo ...

It's still sittin in front of the house ... and I haven't even begun to look ... heart is still pounding ... wanted to check in here first ....WTF am I lookin' at here, guys? Any ideas where to go with this first?

[CatatonicBug]

Not sure, so just stabbing in the dark here, but maybe a stuck starter button or a stuck starter solenoid?

[GARTHXS]

wtf!!!!!

Somthing the all powerful wizard can't figure out , sounds like a bad solonoid maybe

[XJOK2PLAY]

Hey Wiz...

I used to have an old Ford that had the fender mounted solenoid, and every so often it would do that same thing! The only way to get it to shut off was to remove the 16 ga. switchleg from the solenoid post...

I later found that I had a bad ignition switch. (It was keeping the "start" swleg energized in the "run" position.)

What was hard about tracking it down was the other 200 times it would work perfectly!

Might break out the ole DVOM, and while you got the covers off and can get to the solenoid, try removing the small guage wire from the post on the solenoid if it sticks again and see if that disengages the starter. If it does, check for voltage on the swleg... if it's there even though the keys in the run position, ignition switch could be faulty. If it doesn't, sometimes the contacts burn / transfer inside the solenoid on the main contacts, and can stick shut w/o releasing. New solenoid's the trick there.

Might not hurt to double check battery voltage... I have seen low battery voltage causing a solenoid to stick.

I bet that was wild... especially when you couldn't stall it!
Good luck! Hope this helps.
Bob

[Larrym]

Post Mortem Photo

Wiz,

Magic 8-Ball says that "Starter Solenoid Failed in the ON Position". I had this happen to me on a Ford as well. I started my truck and then drove down the road for 3 blocks before I decided to stop and see what that strange whirring noise was all about. I had to disconnect the battery cable to make it stop spinning the engine.

At least you got to it right then and there. If you had tried to ignore it and drive away then the starter gears would have still been engaged: not such a good thing.

Oh Gawd! I hate to make this any more time consuming for you, but if you de-solder the two wires which connect to the solenoid you can disassemble the darned thing and see what happened on the inside. Real ugly in there probably but you'd be able to see the actual metal contacts which came together and welded themselves. Not a pretty picture. (Hint. Hint. Nudge. Nudge. Know what I mean??)

[thewiz]

Good suggestions all ...

and thx ... once I put up the post I went back out and began to look ... the starter button isn't functioning correctly at all any more ... but ... I don't know if that was a cause or a result right now. What bugged me is that even the Ign. switch wouldn't shut it off ...

And, yes, I could take that relay apart and probably find the big flat washer inside welded up to the hot post ... hmmmm ...again which is it ... cause or result? Dunno yet.

In the meanwhile, I just got out my G and went ridin' on it instead ... let this thread ferment for a while and see what shakes out ...

[MeatTooth]

That must have been horrific! Just listening to that story has my thinking about putting in a quick battery cutoff.

[MeatTooth]

I agree that the solenoid is the culprit. There is nothing inline between the battery and starter other than the solenoid, and without power from the ignition, fuses, or starter button the solenoid should have powered down and released the starter. I just put a ford bronco solenoid on my xs11 cafe and it only cost $14.

[Ivan]

I agree that the solenoid is the culprit. There is nothing inline between the battery and starter other than the solenoid, and without power from the ignition, fuses, or starter button the solenoid should have powered down and released the starter. I just put a ford bronco solenoid on my xs11 cafe and it only cost $14.

Hell yes. I'll bet the Ford solenoid would last forever on a scoot. I imagine the bike probably pulls 1/4 the amps of a 460 when starting.

[3Phase]

... What bugged me is that even the Ign. switch wouldn't shut it off ...

Holy smoke-leak-detectors, Wiz!

There should be two wires on the Normally Open terminal of the solenoid: one large Black wire that goes to the starter motor; one smaller Green wire that connects to a Red/Yellow wire and runs to the TCI to bypass the ballast resistor when you're starting the bike.

The starter motor and the ballast resistor bypass are switched by the solenoid and they are not fused unless you count the internal connectors between cells inside the battery as 'fuses'.

If the solenoid contacts stick closed the starter motor will continue to turn and the ignition will run because it's bypassed the kill switch, the ignition switch and the ballast resistor.


Regards,

Scott

[thewiz]

Yup ... you guys are

SMART ... thx Scott and everyone else that chimed in. Guess I'll be workin' on that now pretty quick.

[XJOK2PLAY]

Wiz,

I agree w/ Scott... he nailed it as to why it wouldn't shut off even by the ignition switch...

If you think about it like this, you have a large guage battery cable wire (#6)coming from the battery going to one post of the solenoid, and another going from the solenoid to the starter post. The small wires come from the ignition switch and power a coil inside the solenoid, and that makes it make / break inside the solenoid, to either complete or break the circuit between the two large #6 wires. BUT... if for some reason the 2 main contacts inside the solenoid fail to seperate when the coil's de-energized, it's the same as if you have a battery cable going straight to the starter. That's why it kept going, even though you turned the switch off.
Solenoid replacement should be the first thing to try.

[thewiz]

and indeed I will, bob ..

You and Scott and everyone nailed it. Seems like the 'what' is never enough for me though.... sad, huh? I seem to want learn the 'why' ... electrical guru, I'm not ... but I love to learn. Thx ... I'll be diggin' one out of the box of old parts and stickin' it on there ... let's hope the starter and s. clutch is still functional. I have to get into that button again too ...

[3Phase]

Bad Start Button

... I seem to want learn the 'why' ... I'll be diggin' one out of the box of old parts and stickin' it on there ... let's hope the starter and s. clutch is still functional. I have to get into that button again too ...

You mentioned that the start button is toasted? It may not have been a stuck solenoid. It is possible that the start button stuck down/sideways/engaged/on.

Looking at a schematic: the Blue/White wire to the start button from the solenoid gets power from a tap on the primary Red/White ignition wire from the fuse box Ignition fuse to the TCI.

In a rational system: if the start button got stuck then the kill switch, the ignition switch or pulling the ignition fuse should shut off the solenoid by killing power through the solenoid coil to the start button to ground.

I'll check my TCI and the wiring because it is possible that inside of the TCI the Red/Yellow wire from the solenoid powers both the White/Red ballast resistor bypass wire and the Red/White primary ignition wire from the fuse box while the solenoid is on to start the engine.


Regards,

Scott

[thewiz]

Oh geeez ... now it's gettin' complicated, ain't it

that button never stuck before but it ain't workin' right now .... hmmmm .... I had replaced it a few months ago when I was still in SD with a new one from PNM. Worked perfectly ... until ...