engine toast?

[TajMan]

So I got my bike non-running, that means engine unknown condition.

I just found the hidden kick-start stowed away, so I put it on to kick engine over.

I believe my engine is completely seized up.
When I drained the oil, very little dirty oil drizzled out.



21K miles on odo.


So what's the protocol with engine out of bike at this point?
I gotta split engine cases open and start disassembly until I find the problem?

[CatatonicBug]

Have you looked in through the spark plug holes? Might try a PB Blaster soak in there to loosen the cylinders up. If all else fails, you split the cases, and do the big-bore kit.

[thewiz]

Or you might ...

just try looking for a different, known running, motor. Can usually be had pretty cheaply ... heck I gave a couple away when I moved here to NC. Also ...a couple of ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil down each plug hole, wait a day or so and try to turn it again with the kick lever.

Hopefully when you tried it first time it was clearly in neutral and on the middle stand, right?

[TajMan]

It was in neutral, bike has no center stand at this point..


What does the big-bore kit raise displacement to?
Can I do this in conjunction with a lower CR, like 8:1 pistons for boost?

I know I can buy another old engine that runs for cheap. I may do this to get running first quick, while I can build up other engine on workshop table--for this monster of a bike I intend to finish building.

[thewiz]

I have bought ..

good running engines for between a 100 and 300 bucks. If that bottom end is fried, gonna' be a bugger to even get all the parts .... many hundred just for the pistons and cylinder work to do a big bore job. Displacements are either 1179 or 1196. The pistons are essentially the big bore kit. You will have to take your own barrels in to have bored to fit the pistons. Compressions are in the 10 + area.

[trbig]

Take the left sidecover off the engine and use a 19mm wrench on the timing plate and try that versus the kick starter. Work it back and forth. Try to get it in neutral if you can.


Tod

[TajMan]

Take the left sidecover off the engine and use a 19mm wrench on the timing plate and try that versus the kick starter. Work it back and forth. Try to get it in neutral if you can.


Tod

I took spark plugs out and used a penetrating oil, then took side cover off and started using 19mm wrench.

I got crank to start working back and forth, got to where I had a lot of rotation.

The crank will almost make a full revolution, but then it binds up on something and will NOT turn past it. When it comes to this binding point, turning from some directions sometimes causes a clicking inside the motor.

Anyway, unless you guys have another answer, I believe the motor is F'd inside somewhere and valves must be hitting pistons.

Should I just pull head at this point to find location of problem in engine? (if this issue is putting a hold on my total bike build project anyway..)

[xs11bobber]

That happened to my dad's "stock" motor. Dropped a valve + bent the S%#t out of it. Best bet would be buy another motor.

[GARTHXS]

valves

could just be a bent valve , pull the cover off and inspect itm ight be cheaper than a whole newish motor

[Larrym]

Return On Investment

Hopefully you got this bike for a good price cause it sounds like is was a victim of"catastrophic engine failure". I can't think of anyone I know who keeps a bike, boat, or car around just cause they like the way it looks in the driveway or garage. It has to go down the road under its own steam or your neighbors/friends are gonna put you in the "needs mental health treatment" category.

This being said, it's a better return on your investment to get a used motor instead of tearing into the old one and rebuilding it. Just cause it can be rebuilt doesn't automatically mean it should be rebuilt. Swapping out the known bad motor with a good one has a lot of benefits.The known bad motor can be used for parts. It can also be used as a "bench test" motor where you can test/practice any repair procedures before you do them on the running motor. Lastly you can actually go in and do an "autopsy" on the dead motor if in fact your curiosity won't let you sleep at night. If it turns out the "To Do" list for repairing the motor is do-able with the resources you have at hand, then you'll have a second running motor. (That definitely is a warm and fuzzy feeling!)

But all this focus on the bad motor takes a back seat to riding the now "ambulatory" bike and moving on to the other issues which keep the bike going down the road safely and reliably. Time, effort, and Money better spent where the return is more likely to push you over into the "I Like My Bike/I like my Life" category.

( I do have a functioning motor in my bike and another motor taking up garage space.)

[thewiz]

Exactly what the Garth-man said ...

I believe the motor is F'd inside somewhere and valves must be hitting pistons

Very common ... if that bottom end is still servicable, the top side is a pretty simple deal though. It's also possible that the chain has slipped off the crank gear and is jammed up between the case and the gear. Happens ... 'specially if the PO pulled the chain tensioner with the bike on the side stand, that could be your snag. Should be on a middle stand or jack vertical for removing the tensioner. Don't ask me how I know

I would pull the cam cover and both cams, pull the slack out of the chain and wire it with a coat hanger to the frame above so the chain will slide over the wire. Have a look down the cavity with a lamp at the bottom gear and chain and see what you can see ... if the chain is seated on bottom sprocket, THEN see if you can crank it with a wrench. With the cams off, the bent valve, if that's what you're dealing with, might retract enough to turn the motor over. Let's hope so, anyway.

[skids]

If he was able to crank it around one way then the other before the interferrance, I would say the chain is on the crank. I do think it is a good idea to check the timing marks on the cams. I would reposition the chain on the cam sprockets if the timing is off, just to see if there is any compression. AND yes, if you can't rotate the crank to do this, loosen the cams, etc.

[trbig]

I just can't believe the people coming on here saying, "Get another motor" when you have no idea the one you have is bad!? Craziest thing I've heard in a while. You can have the valve cover off in 5 minutes, the head off in an hour, and the motor apart in an afternoon. The motor could be fine, and it could be screwed, but you'll never know until you look a little deeper. To just automatically write it off is asinine.

So.. let's assume it's trashed. In regard to other comments, I have seen these bikes just sit for multitudes of reasons.. LEAST of which is actual engine problems or "Catastrophic engine failure". Most tend to be the transmission problem these bikes have, along with pickup coil wires and other assorted electrical problems. Again.. not saying it never happens, but usually the motors are OK. So back to the original statement... say this engine is toast. Do you get a spare motor and risk it being in not much better shape? With a 30 year time span, a lot of different owners could have done a lot of different things to these bikes and not a lot of them good. Or.. do you spend a little more money and rebuild one so you KNOW you have something good and that will last? Only YOU can answer that one.


As for "Hitting a valve" with the piston, I have done this while being VERY careful.. and bent several valves by just turning that crank at the timing plate with a wrench like you're doing... and never felt a thing. There's just too much leverage that the pistons/crank/rods have at that time and the valves bend very easily.. so I doubt this is the problem, though not impossible. It normally just bends the valves out of the way.. not lock the piston up.

So first thing is to take the valve cover off and take a gander into the motor. You can look all the way to the bottom of the motor where the cam chain goes around the crank by looking with a fl;ashlight down the center galley. You can also check your valve clearances. If you see any with a huge gap between the shim and the cam.. it's probable that there are bent valves there. BUT... even that is easily fixable instead of just writing the motor off.

Be smart and check things out so you can then make the best informed decision on your next course of action.

Tod

[thewiz]

Uhhhh, Tod ...

Take it easy there, pard ... let's not have a fit conniption here ... it's bad for your heart

Reading a post from a new guy, more often than not, requires some considerable reading between the lines ...hell, we're not all tech writers... some of us are just plain ordinary bikers Here is what he said ...

I believe my engine is completely seized up.
When I drained the oil, very little dirty oil drizzled out.

So what's the protocol with engine out of bike at this point?
I gotta split engine cases open and start disassembly until I find the problem?

Heck ... there just could be a valve stuck open ... probably bent now ... but without further investigation, it's ALL just speculation anyway ... all we can really do in some cases is present the man with some different avenues of approach to the discovering problem and options on how to proceed. Reason a lot of us (but not all of us) ride these old bikes is that they're a lot of bang for a little bit of buck ... so the cheapest, good option is worthy of primary consideration as is also a 'worst case' or 'stop loss' option.

If any one of us were on location, no doubt we could figure it out pretty fast .... but we ain't ... so all we're kinda' stuck sharp-angling on paper ...albeit that some of us are more obtuse than others about it ... ... but even so, almost any of us who have been around a few years have a valid viewpoint, don't ya' think?

Motors are readily available, at least I've found 'em when I wanted to and sometimes even found 'em when I wasn't lookin' and bought the damn things anyway. Cheaply too ... much cheaper than a rebuild. Just gave three away. Incidentally the same logic that you're applying to the man's existing motor also applies to a replacement motor too, doesn't it?

All that LarryM and myself are suggesting is that if, in fact, his motor does have a fried bottom end or has been run hard without oil and wrecked a bunch of stuff, another known-good motor is a practical option and probably a good 'stop loss' one too. Could be his oil was drained on purpose before he even got it ... but, then again, maybe not either. If it's the latter .... well ... might not bode well for a quick, cheap easy repair on the existing motor.

There is good news in that regard too: if he does need a total ground-up rebuild and decides to go that route, YOU, TRBig, are THE MAN best suited to talk him though it, after all ... you're the current record-holder on rebuilds, right? .. ... you oughta' be pretty good.... heck, I know you are.

I can buy another old engine that runs for cheap. I may do this to get running first quick,

But moreover though; my interpretation is that this man is NOT particularly anxious to dive elbows deep into a ground up rebuild at the present time ... seems like what he actually means is that he wants to RIDE NOW, while the season is here, and get into a rebuild later ... and if that is the case; I think I know exactly how he feels.........

[trbig]

You apparently missed my whole point. It was being suggested he immediately go buy another engine without knowing ANYTHING about his current one. You assume he absolutely needs a rebuild, when nobody, especially him, knows this, and that it's going to be cheaper to do this than mess with his current one. Again.. possible, but nobody knows right now. A new timing chain and a valve or two are going to be cheaper than most motors you'll find.

My point was that it wouldn't take much time to check out what he has and see exactly what's wrong.. without spending any money on a new motor OR a rebuild. You act like checking out the motor is going to cost him a riding season.

And if you are going to check out the new motor.. why in the world wouldn't you check out the first one? If the new one smokes like crazy, are you going to say it's toast and to get ANOTHER one without checking it out to see if it's something simple like valve seals? Is there any way to know how many miles are on this other running motor or more importantly, how it's been treated over it's life?

so the cheapest, good option is worthy of primary consideration as is also a 'worst case' or 'stop loss' option.

Which would be exactly ONE of the options I was suggesting. A couple of you weren't giving options, just saying, "Give up and go buy another motor." You can't make an informed decision to the cheapest route unless you check things out a bit and have some sort of idea of what kind of costs you're looking at to fix what you already have. After a motor is out, you can split the cases in 10 minutes with an air ratchet.. 20 by hand.

Again.. as I stated in the last post, I suggest checking things out a little bit to see what you've got first. Then, if needed, YOU decide if you want a quick fix with a used motor that may come with it's own problems.. or if you want to spend the money and time and get one done right. If you aren't willing to even take off a valve cover to see what could possibly be wrong, I suggest a newer bike that you won't have to turn a wrench on.


Tod