A Momentary Lapse of Reason!

[65oldsboy]

Well, I can finally rest this afternoon! If you're having a nice lazy day and have the time to read this NOVEL, please continue along! I'm posting this partly to show that I just don't talk the talk, I occasionally walk the walk!

This was the best (only) novel I've read in years. TC, you are THE MAN for giving up your holiday weekend to help someone in need.

[Bronzeback]

I'm a newbe here but just wanna say...nice to see you help the guy out! I used to know a Big Al in Greensboro back in 87-90 or so...different guy though.

[motoman]

thanks T.C....................after entering that thread, was hoping you wouldn't take it personal as it was directed to be information for others that may be in the middle of trying to solve suspensiohern issues without having to spend alot of money to get satisfactory results. What I have done definitely may not always resolve the problem, but alot of times I tend to forget this part of the country we don't have humidity/moisture issues that raises havic over the years with several parts of these bikes. And I definitely gotta hand it to so many here that go to all the work necessary to revive and keep these bikes up and running. For the most part, I would'nt even consider bringing back to there original glory some of these bikes the people here have taken on as projects. I passed on one here last fall for $300 just because it had incorrect bars and a standard tank of different color being it was a special, although it went into gear and shifted as slick as my ST without so much as a clunk, and rode/ran like a swiss clock. I know.........some here would be drooling....lol. We do get a bit spoiled and picky when it comes to anything with rust issues or having moisture where it doesn't belong. Again, Thanks......you all here are a class act!

[Bigge_al]

TC thanks for the Help

TC covered most of the issues we ran into. But left out the bath of front tube fluid I gave him because I forgot to bleed the air out of the forks. He he gave up time spending time with his children and grandchild that came over to visit. I felt guilt for taking time away from his family. As far as the food it was fantanstic you could say it was "On an Island"(David Gilmour) all by itself. I got home and was completely exhausted took a day to recover. But today I was able to take Echoes(the bike formally know as Thunderstruck) for a ride to put it through it passes it was almost like a "Wet Dream"(Rick Wright). I completed the minor adjustments before hand (rear and front brake peddle, the shifter height, mirrors, and air pressure). I have to say that without TC I would have been up a creek. It was great to have someone who when taking your bike apart can say that this is not in the correct place or that should have a clip on there or that is missing a part. Most dealerships would have went in repaired the complaint and put it back together without fixing other problems. Plus the education he gave me how to put it on center stand, how to cancel the turn signals and other things a novice rider needs to learn all this sounds simple but was not to me. Again I want to thank not only TC all the rest of you who post repairs and concerns that leads to novices like me to do repairs and keep these machines running.

[oldnortonrider]

Then we pulled the valve cover, and checked the clearances. Only found 1 that was just slightly under at .003 for intake. Before I did the calculations I went ahead and used the Motion Pro valve bucket tool (THANKS John/WILDKAT ) and found the shim to be a 285. Then realised that using a 280 would make the clearance a whopping .008, and since we didn't have any replacement shims, we left the slightly close shim in there, but he knows how to replace it now!

For the XSers, those beginning to work with these shims and their numbers, the number on the shim is that fraction of a centimeter. So, "285" is 285 thousandths of a centimeter; or, same, 2.85 millimeters The shim thicknesses are changed in increments of 5. A change of "5" means a change, thicker or thinner , of 5 thousandths of a centimeter; not 5 thousandths of an inch. An increase or decrease of this metric "5", is a change, plus or minus of two thousandths of an inch , (SAE). Almost exactly, ~~ less than half of one ten thousandth of an inch; to be exact , the "5" metric change is .0019685 . Close enuf; remember that number forever: "five" is a "two" in real time.

Some helpful numbers for later, or to understand how to come up with the above conversion ONE INCH = 25.400 millimeters , 10 millimeters to a centimeter, 2.54 centimeters to an inch.
One MM = .0393700 of an inch ..................and, hundredths of a millimeter, means thousandths of a centimeter.

Changing the "285" shim to a "280", would have taken the ".003" (SAE) clearance to ".005" (SAE) clearance: not to ".008" SAE clearance. I hope this information that I'm putting forth is all correct; I'm always open to be called to my attention, mistakes of mine that do occasionally crop up. This shim business and number conversions can seem complicated. One has to spend a bit of time and requires patience, to become familiar with these metric to SAE switches, and vise-versa.

.........(another conversion example); In the gun world Remington once made a 5mm magnum rifle (rimfire cartridge). Was known in the gunsmith world as a .20 calibre.

[yamtom]

correct on all counts

Hi Oldnortonrider,
Ive read your post over a couple of times, and it looks like the math is all correct , conversions are a bit of a hassle with mm to cm and back to sae inch designations. I just find that its easiest to think in terms of MM being forty thousandths of an inch, a tenth of a mm, is four thousandths of an inch and of course each individual smallest increment of ,,,,five,,, in the yammie shims amounts to about two thousandths of inch for us that grew up with thinking in terms of the sae designation.

PARTS OF PREVIOUS POSTS BELOW
Only found 1 that was just slightly under at .003 for intake. Before I did the calculations I went ahead and used the Motion Pro valve bucket tool (THANKS John/WILDKAT ) and found the shim to be a 285. Then realised that using a 280 would make the clearance a whopping .008, and since we didn't have any replacement shims, we left the slightly close shim in there, but he knows how to replace it now!
QUOTE=TopCat; from above, Post No. 1]

For the XSers, those beginning to work with these shims and their numbers, the number on the shim is that fraction of a centimeter. So, "285" is 285 thousandths of a centimeter; or, same, 2.85 millimeters The shim thicknesses are changed in increments of 5. A change of "5" means a change, thicker or thinner , of 5 thousandths of a centimeter; not 5 thousandths of an inch. An increase or decrease of this metric "5", is a change, plus or minus of two thousandths of an inch , (SAE). Almost exactly, ~~ less than half of one ten thousandth of an inch; to be exact , the "5" metric change is .0019685 . Close enuf; remember that number forever: "five" is a "two" in real time.

Some helpful numbers for later, or to understand how to come up with the above conversion ONE INCH = 25.400 millimeters , 10 millimeters to a centimeter, 2.54 centimeters to an inch.
One MM = .0393700 of an inch ..................and, hundredths of a millimeter, means thousandths of a centimeter.

Changing the "285" shim to a "280", would have taken the ".003" (SAE) clearance to ".005" (SAE) clearance: not to ".008" SAE clearance. I hope this information that I'm putting forth is all correct; I'm always open to be called to my attention, mistakes of mine that do occasionally crop up. This shim business and number conversions can seem complicated. One has to spend a bit of time and requires patience, to become familiar with these metric to SAE switches, and vise-versa.

.........(another conversion example); In the gun world Remington once made a 5mm magnum rifle (rimfire cartridge). Was known in the gunsmith world as a .20 calibre.[/QUOTE]

[James England]

What's the 5th gear dowel you refer to in this post please?

[DGXSER]

In the end of the shift drum that is under the shift cover on the left side of the bike, there are pins that the shifting pawl grabs to rotate the drum and shift gears. They are held in place by a spring like plate. That plate, can bend and let the pin fall out. The most common one is the pin the pawl grabs to shift into 5th gear.

[James England]

In the end of the shift drum that is under the shift cover on the left side of the bike, there are pins that the shifting pawl grabs to rotate the drum and shift gears. They are held in place by a spring like plate. That plate, can bend and let the pin fall out. The most common one is the pin the pawl grabs to shift into 5th gear.

Ah yes, I know what you mean now, thanks. I just stripped a spares XS11 engine as a practice for doing my own gearbox and I want to make sure I don't miss anything when reassembling.

I put the countershaft back in the gearbox with a certain difficulty, in fact, but managed in the end (engine out and upside down). One thing I found impossible was to put the countershaft back in if I moved the washer from one side of 2nd gear cog to the other, as suggested on this forum occasionally. I just could not get the countershaft back in. Even with the washer in place as usual, I found it very tricky to get the countershaft back in. Am I not doing something that I should?? THe gearbox was in 4th gear.

One other thing... the second gear cog is retained by a spring clip, correct? How does one get this clip off the countershaft without damaging it or bending it and rendering it useless? I had a problem getting it off my 'practice' coutershaft and ended up distorting it enough to not want to use it again. There are no eyes on the end to use circlip pliers or similar. Is is normal practice to just use a new circlip? If so, where does one get them from?

[bikerphil]

The spring clip can be carefully removed with a couple of small flat head screwdrivers, working your way around until it's out of it's groove, then just slide it off the end. If you should distort it some, it can be straightened. Lay it on a flat surface to make sure it's true.
Something that is often overlooked on reassembly is that the 2nd gear must spin freely on the countershaft without binding from the clip. If it does not spin freely, you will notice an rougher shift from 1st to 2nd gear.
As for assembling with the washer swapped over, yes it is a little bit tricky, but you probably just didn't try enough times to get it.
New clip for 2nd gear are $3.85 online, but your dealer should be able to get them, P/N 93440-30015-00
http://www.yamahaaccy.com/parts.aspx

[CatatonicBug]

With the washer swap, it can get a little more difficult to get the shaft back in, but not impossible. Slide the gears on the right side (clutch side) of the shaft toward the end of the shaft (so they are floating lose on the shaft), and tilt them "around" the main shaft gears above them. Rotate the main shaft gears by slightly turning the rear wheel to help get them to slip past each other. You can also use a hammer on the left (shift lever side) end of the countershaft (through the bearing hole) to firmly tap it into place and get 2nd gear to slip past the main shaft gear above it. Pay attention to the shift forks though, because you can't get the shift forks in after the countershaft is installed. They have to be aligned correctly, and will fall into place when the countershaft seats correctly.

[DGXSER]

Yes, getting the countershaft back in is almost always the hardest part of the entire project for me. (one time the shift forks were a major pain though). I do find that I need to turn the rear wheel to get the main shaft gears to align with the countershaft gears as I slide it into place. Something you did not have access to do with it on the bench. I also slide the middle driven gear and first gear out on the shaft so they can twist a bit. I slide the inner bearing out of first as well. Once you get the gears to line up, the shaft slides into place like magic. Personally, I am not big on using hammers on shafts that fit tight into bearings. To much risk of galling the bearing surface IMO.

If your going to have the engine on the bench anyway, it is not to much work from there to split the cases and make the process MUCH easier. This non-splitting method is more of an on the bike process, again, just my opinion.

[James England]

Thanks for that everyone. I'll examine the gears carefully, starting with the 5th gear dogs since it appears to be comparatively easy to get the gear out. Hopefully no damage to the 5th and 2nd gears??? If there is, I'll bite the bullet and take the countershaft out and replace the gears. I think what bothers me slightly is that, although I managed three times to take out the countershaft and put it back in (with all gearchanges fine afterwards), I don't actually know how I got it to go back. It reminded me of one of those Chinese wire puzzles where, suddenly, the two bits go back together and you don't know how! Illogically, I'm concerned that I'll take the countershaft out of my bike and be unable to get it back in! I think what I'll do is remove 5th gear, then shine a torch in and have a look at those slots the dogs engage with. I do have two great cogs from my 'practice' gearbox, so I really should replace damaged ones, eh? Same goes for first gear too. GULP

[CatatonicBug]

I think what bothers me slightly is that, although I managed three times to take out the countershaft and put it back in (with all gearchanges fine afterwards), I don't actually know how I got it to go back.

LOL! I completely understand what you mean. I think it's just one of those things where you stop for a second, hold your breath, and back away slowly - hoping it stays right where it is long enough to polt everything else in place. It's just magic! Like the smoke in the electrical system!