Need timing help

[tarzan]

I havent checked the travel on the tensioner,but I did go through the adjustment ritual today and did not hear a click or anything .I dont know if it moved or not.But I did turn it over by hand and it felt ok.So that is when I fired it up and synced it.
Do I need to remove the assembly from the motor to check travel.That appears to me what I have to do.If so ,I'll line up the marks in the morning and remove the tensioner and move the crank a notch to re-time it.
To move the crank a notch ,will I have enough slack in the chain with the tensioner off to rotate the crank?

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Tarzan,

On page 4 of this thread, "Got Defeated"....
http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22488&page=4
WA407mpp provided a great writeup about the pitfalls of removing the cam chain tensioner without pulling the valve cover off and ensuring the proper chain tension is maintained, etc. You should still have your valve cover off.

The problem with trying to provide slack by removing the sprockets from the cam shoulders is that you will need to turn the cams 180 degrees to get to the other bolt, and you don't want to be doing that!

The safest way would be to remove the cam caps, allowing the cams to lift out, remove the chain, remove the sprockets, reposition the crank, then reinsert the cams, mount the chain on to the sprockets, mount the 1st sprocket bolt for each cam. Hopefully you will have already removed the cam tensioner, inspected the plunger shaft for burrs, etc., compressed it, temporarily locked it in place, reattach it to the engine, release the tensioner, let it thunk, temporarily tighten it, check cam chain tension on the cam rail, then slowly turn engine verifying that cams are turning, following tensioner setting protocal, stop at "C", reloosen plunger bolt, then retighten to torque and locknut, rotate engine again verifying that it is staying in time, put the other 2 cam sprocket bolts in, torque, and you should be done!
T.C.

[Flatlander]

The indicator is right,I checked TDC today when I did the compression check.

To move the crank a notch ,will I have enough slack in the chain with the tensioner off to rotate the crank?

I do not believe that there is enough room under the crank gear to let it skip a tooth on the crank.......unless from severe chain slop wear on the case????? DO NOT PUT THAT STATEMENT IN STONE THOUGH!
I suggest doing the adjustments at the cam gears.
I figure out which one is off and what direction I need to go with the gears on the chain....then rotate the crank off of tdc 90 deg, so when I loosen the chain I don't have a cam rotate and crash valves on pistons (two pistons possible at tdc)......make my adjustment to the gears on the chain.............make chain tension adjustment.......check cam timing.....?????
Notice question marks......if this is way off, someone let me know and have this post deleted asap!

[Flatlander]

"The problem with trying to provide slack by removing the sprockets from the cam shoulders is that you will need to turn the cams 180 degrees to get to the other bolt, and you don't want to be doing that! "

Why not? Just remove the bolt that is not accessable at tdc first. Right???

[TopCatGr58]

"The problem with trying to provide slack by removing the sprockets from the cam shoulders is that you will need to turn the cams 180 degrees to get to the other bolt, and you don't want to be doing that! "

Why not? Just remove the bolt that is not accessable at tdc first. Right???

The problem is being able to verify that the crank and cams are in the proper timing first. Rotating the cams alone without the crank turning can push valves into pistons or even other valves! And turning the engine over without being sure you have the crank at TDC and the cam dots up is another way to possibly bend valves!
T.C.

[Flatlander]

The problem is being able to verify that the crank and cams are in the proper timing first. Rotating the cams alone without the crank turning can push valves into pistons or even other valves! And turning the engine over without being sure you have the crank at TDC and the cam dots up is another way to possibly bend valves!
T.C.

Good point.

[Ivan]

If you have any clearance at all on the #1 intake valve cold, it should not be an issue, at least while the engine is cold. Valve adjustment shows up when the engine gets warm, and the valve stem expands enough that the clearance is overtaken and the base circle of the cam actually holds the valve open. Typically exhaust valves will be the first to cause a problem since they run hotter. The typical way this plays out is such: Engine starts and runs normally. Even sounds quiet and smooth (not much lash to make clicking sound while cold). Then when getting out on the highway and up to speed, the engine starts missing, and cutting out. Pretty soon, it just dies. An hour later, when the valves have cooled down again, it starts and runs fine, until it heats up again.

Now if your #1 intake valve is bent, thats another story.

[Flatlander]

If you have any clearance at all on the #1 intake valve cold, it should not be an issue, at least while the engine is cold. Valve adjustment shows up when the engine gets warm, and the valve stem expands enough that the clearance is overtaken and the base circle of the cam actually holds the valve open. Typically exhaust valves will be the first to cause a problem since they run hotter. The typical way this plays out is such: Engine starts and runs normally. Even sounds quiet and smooth (not much lash to make clicking sound while cold). Then when getting out on the highway and up to speed, the engine starts missing, and cutting out. Pretty soon, it just dies. An hour later, when the valves have cooled down again, it starts and runs fine, until it heats up again.

Now if your #1 intake valve is bent, thats another story.

When did you meet my bike?



If the stem gets longer as it warms and the clearance is tighter to the cam, ie: possibly holding the valve open, why does cam/lifter noise get louder as it warms up? Seems cam/lifter noise would be quiter, as far as a "ticking" sounds goes.???

[tarzan]

It gets noisier when it gets hot because the oil gets thinner.

[Flatlander]

Good point But enough thinner to be equal or greater than the growth of the stem length?

[tarzan]

It must be because they do sound like a swarm of bees when they are hot.
I know when I change my oil that the hot oil coming out is real thin and the new oil is thick.

[Flatlander]

Here is where I need to do some learning........
Like honey, oil flows easier when warmed. But don't "things" expand when warm???? SOOO......in theary shouldn't the (oh by the way, here is where I'll be my best at seeming smart) molecular tolerance of the oil when warmed be "thicker"??? OOOHHH SOMEBODY STOP ME!!

[DGXSER]

Don't know what the "molecular tolerance" your referring to is, but the Viscosity of the oil will drop as it gets hotter. In other words, its resistance to pressure being exerted against it is lower. So it is more easily pushed out of the way. So the force of the valve stem being exerted on the bucket is greater due to the oil absorbing less of it, same for the bucket to the cam.

I do agree that the clearance or gap between the cam and bucket/shim will narrow or drop as the engine heats up though as both the cam lobe and the valve stem and the bucket and the shim will expand if ever so slightly.

[Flatlander]

[QUOTE=DGXSER;215611]Don't know what the "molecular tolerance" your referring to is, QUOTE]

Ya me neither.....



Thanks for the info.!

[Shappers]

I just redid my camchain timing last night as I didn't get both the dots lined up the first time. While I was in there I did some measuring which may help out.

When the chain is ONE tooth out on the sprocket it corresponds to the dot being 3mm away from the mark on the cam cap.

It wont bend valves or do any damage if it is 1 tooth out but your compression will be down. Your picture that you posted looked identical to mine, the dot looks like 3mm to the left of the mark.