I see lots of noodles

[3Phase]

I do not see any chicken.

Two minor items while enjoying a rainy, tranquil, day of changing the clutch plates and removing the oil pan for engine/transmission inspection, then dialing in the carburetors: The old, warped, clutch steels are thicker than the new OEM steels and all four of the carburetor slide diaphragm spring free lengths are different.


Old clutch steels : 0.078 to 0.079"
New OEM clutch steels: 0.0767"

In New springs on a new clutch, Mark_E mentions a steel width of 1.95mm (0.0767"). After marinading the new friction plates overnight in a savory 4T JASO-MA certified motorcycle oil I used the new OEM steels and added one of the old, thicker, steels to the middle of the stack for the 'extra steel' clutch mod. I am puzzled by the difference between the old and new steels. A few threads mention checking pressure plate wear, too, but I can find no dimensions or tolerances.


81xsproject started a tasty, tantalizing, thread about Diaphram spring length that ended with a suggestion to purchase new springs if cash was not an issue.
The springs on my carburetors vary between 4.93" and 4.97".

Yes that is chicken. It might have walked through the water once.



Regards,

Scott

[jetmechmarty]

Carb and clutch parts source

Since the XS1100 shares clutch plates and carburetors with the XS650, you may source parts from www.650central.com and www.mikesxs.com

[3Phase]

Thank you, Marty, I'll have a look!

I've been all over the 'net last night and today and I have found a few sites with threads about checking the pressure plate or mentioning that it had 0.nn" wear. I can't find what it's supposed to look like without any wear.

The clutch friction dimensions and tolerances are mentioned all over the 'net; in my Yamaha factory manual; Clymer's; on this site in numerous threads and T.C. even made a picture showing how to measure a friction for his clutch mod tech tip.

Mark_E here was the only one that I could find, anywhere, that mentions a dimension for the steels. Apparently, no one measures the steels and they should.

It looks like Ivan has a new thread about the carburetor slide springs that I need to investigate!


Regards,

Scott

[79XS11F]

I would worry too much about the OEM plates being slightly thinner because within reason FLAT and un-glazed is more important. IMO the return springs in the carb tops should all be the same length. Perhaps someone was messing around with them in the past. POD filters will not cure your problem with fuel free flowing but YES they do allow for a quicker inspection of that area for fuel.

Rob

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Scott,

I was perusing the tips tonight for another reason, and came across a carb tip that talked about the spring lengths, and that the 650s' were shorter, but the guy tried them in his 11, but it made things worse, allowing the slides to rise too soon, flooding, etc.!?

If you're getting some bogging or sluggish response, it may be that the springs are a bit too compressed from years of being in there being compressed!? The guy in the tip stretched his back out about 8mm IIRC, and his throttle response was much better, YMMV, JAT!? I don't remember if the tip stated how long the springs were supposed to be unsprung?!
T.C.

PS, I was going to go out to the garage and measure a spare clutch steel I had hanging on the wall, but then realized that I used it in BNE's MadMax-im during the 3 days it was here getting it's gears swapped around!?

[81xsproject]

I actually purchased the new spring. Long story short, I waited 3 MONTHS for it to come all the way from japan, and once it was here I forgot about it. It sits in the garage in its package. We just bought our first house and are still un-packing. Once I get to the garage, I will measure the length and report back.

[3Phase]

... Perhaps someone was messing around with them in the past.

That is exactly what has happened and now I get to fix the fixes. Joy!

Clutch plates: I've read too many threads from people that had a slipping clutch; replaced everything; it still slipped or it worked for a while and slipped later; they added an extra friction or steel and it either fixed the problem or it made the clutch bind. Some of those poor riders obviously just gave up and left along with their clutch problems; probably stripped their bikes with the annoying clutch problems and parted them out on eBay.

I'm going to measure everything before I put it all back on the bike so I'll have something to compare with other parts. I am a little bit nervous about removing that wire to measure the anti-rattle plates. The clutch slips but it doesn't rattle and I don't want to break it.


Carburetors: No performance issues, I was losing fuel when parked overnight. I bought some new o-rings for the float needle seats and I pulled the carbs. One of the cats jumped up on the bench to help me work by sproinging the springs off to the four corners of the garage. When I found and checked the springs I discovered that all four were different lengths but two were obviously about 1/16" taller than the other two.

I don't know if the two longer springs came with a couple of replacement slides so they're newer and haven't sagged as much as the other two springs; the two shorter springs could be from the inner, hotter, pair of carbs and they sagged more than the other two; someone tried to tune the slide/spring rates; that's just the way the springs have set.

... I don't remember if the tip stated how long the springs were supposed to be unsprung?!
...
I was going to go out to the garage and measure a spare clutch steel

The tech tip I saw just mentioned the 8mm stretch on top of a mystery spring. I remember reading about you and BNE fixing his bike and using the clutch plate. Good work!

I wound up stretching the two shorter springs to the same length as the two taller springs. I'll see what happens when I put it all back together.

I actually purchased the new spring. Long story short, I waited 3 MONTHS for it to come all the way from japan, and once it was here I forgot about it. It sits in the garage in its package. We just bought our first house and are still un-packing. Once I get to the garage, I will measure the length and report back.

Congratulations on the house! 3 MONTHS for a spring? I'm thinking some adjusters for the top of the carb diaphragm covers would allow me to set the springs and avoid trying to order spares from the dark side of the moon!



Regards,

Scott

[Ivan]

Clutch plates: I've read too many threads from people that had a slipping clutch; replaced everything; it still slipped or it worked for a while and slipped later; they added an extra friction or steel and it either fixed the problem or it made the clutch bind. Some of those poor riders obviously just gave up and left along with their clutch problems; probably stripped their bikes with the annoying clutch problems and parted them out on eBay.

I can make spring shims. I made some that are .200" and they work phenomenally well. I will just need the right size pipe. The one I used was the spacer pipe that goes between the two rubber motor mounts on the bike, since I had a spare. If you find the right stock and mail it to me, I will make you some shims. I need about 6" total length, to have enough trail to grab on the lathe and the parting tool is 1/8 inch wide. If you (or anyone else) is interested, pm me.

[latexeses]

81xsproject...

I am at the point of buttoning up the carb rebuild and was pondering this exact question. What is the stock length of the diaphram slide spring? Sounds as though it makes a difference.
I'll wait until I find out before filling them with fuel.
Thanks,
Rodger

[3Phase]

Clutch Measurements and Pictures

I can make spring shims. I made some that are .200" and they work phenomenally well. I will just need the right size pipe. The one I used was the spacer pipe that goes between the two rubber motor mounts on the bike, since I had a spare. If you find the right stock and mail it to me, I will make you some shims. I need about 6" total length, to have enough trail to grab on the lathe and the parting tool is 1/8 inch wide. If you (or anyone else) is interested, pm me.

Thank you, Ivan! I'm still stuffed from Thanksgiving dinner and I'm watching the James Bond marathon on SciFi while I write this.

Right now I have no idea if the springs need shimming or not. I've spent too much time dinking around with the clutch and the slide diaphragm springs and I still haven't removed the oil pan to see what the transmission looks like.

Just to add to the growing technical database, here are some clutch measurements and some pictures:

The new 1.675"/ 42.545mm OEM clutch springs I installed 500 miles ago


are now 1.660" to 1.665" / 42.164mm to 42.291mm. They've already lost free length.


Complete OEM clutch pack width 1.4865" / 37.757mm



Pressure Plate Two 0.400" 10.16mm




Clutch boss assembly 0.470" 11.938mm





Slide show with more clutch pictures


The tryptophan is kicking in big time so I'll try to get the transmission inspection photographed and finished tomorrow so I can put everything back together to see how it runs.

Happy Thanksgiving!


Regards,

Scott

[latexeses]

Has anyone come up with a measurement for the slide spring? I have hunted with every search combo I think might work and come up with a big zero.

Could it be that some of the X/XJ carb sync fussiness might come from springs with different load rates due to being somewhat collapsed??

I have read about mid range stumbling and stumbling under throttle. Could a different spring rate on several of these springs cause that stumble??

It would seem to me that a shorter spring would open quicker than a full length spring letting in more fuel. I would think at the very least it would rob some power.

Just trying to find out if I should fuss over different spring lengths. I think stretching a spring would be a very short term fix. The elasticity of the steel would not be the same. I would think that the spring would need to be retempered to restore its' strength.

Any thoughts?

Rodger

[3Phase]

Has anyone come up with a measurement for the slide spring? I have hunted with every search combo I think might work and come up with a big zero.

Could it be that some of the X/XJ carb sync fussiness might come from springs with different load rates due to being somewhat collapsed??

I have read about mid range stumbling and stumbling under throttle. Could a different spring rate on several of these springs cause that stumble??

It would seem to me that a shorter spring would open quicker than a full length spring letting in more fuel. I would think at the very least it would rob some power.

Just trying to find out if I should fuss over different spring lengths. I think stretching a spring would be a very short term fix. The elasticity of the steel would not be the same. I would think that the spring would need to be retempered to restore its' strength.

Any thoughts?

Rodger

You got it in one there, Rodger, it's possible.

As to fussing? I suppose if anyone had a reference we'd know one way or the other if the springs were something to fuss about. 81xsproject has a new OEM spring but he's the only one so far. How old are these bikes now?

Slide springs that are too weak or too strong can do about the same thing to a Mikuni CV carb as a weak secondary air valve spring and/or a broken lockout on a Mikuni feedback carburetor: provide fuel when it's not supposed to provide it or it won't provide fuel when it's supposed to provide it.

Here's the Mikuni FBC with vacuum-secondary that I fixed on my buddy's 4x4 out in Arizona



That thing was a lot more fun (for certain values of fun) to rebuild and tune than several banks of analog Mikuni CV carburetors. No, I didn't have parts; parts and gaskets are not readily available any more for the Mikuni feedback carburetor and the manuals are not entirely complete or coherent. In that respect it's just like working on the XS1100.



Regards,

Scott

[3Phase]

Pressure Plate Two

I may need to buy a used clutch assembly or a pressure plate if I can't get this one resurfaced.

The wear pattern looks and feels like it has hard spots



Another view that shows obvious tool marks - OEM or a resurface job?




It measures 0.400" / 10.16mm




I need to find a shop that can resurface this puppy but I don't know the service limit. The pressure plate may be too worn to use or a shop may want more to resurface it than the part is worth.



Egads,

Scott

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Scott,

Those marks look like mirror images of the angled sections that the steels fit against?? I'm pretty sure that it's cast, but then machined true, so not sure why they would be that shape. The friction disc is against it, and they aren't necessarily as strong as the aluminum, so I would expect the frictions to wear away more so that causing that kind of wear pattern? Yeah, the swirling marks do look like end mill marks.

Do you have a machinists dial gauge that you could run it against to see how high/deep the wear marks are?? I would think you could shave a few thousandths without much trouble, but putting in an extra steel could help take up the slack!?

Thanks for your work and the measurements, they should find their way into a tech tip sometime this winter!?
T.C.

[Ivan]

On my clutch, the surface is turned, not milled. I am perplexed as to what caused that as well, unless at some point it was run metal to metal, with the friction material completely gone.

Only thing I can think is that it was improperly installed at some point. Those nubs should fit the splines on the pressure plate. If there were a steel there instead of a friction disk, it would have kept the nubs from seating and possibly rattled around when the clutch was disengaged, causing the mirror image witness marks.