Calling all metallurgists

[The Lorax]

Hey Doug,

next time you are looking for sodium carbonate...soda ash...goto your local supermarket, hit the baking aisle, "baking powder" is sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate is baking soda. muriatic acid is Hydrochloric acid, I don't really remember anymore, but there is (as someone mentioned in a previous post) a root killer or something that is basically copper sulfate, a primary ingredient in an acid copper plating bath, the rest is water, sulfuric acid, and some molasses (to aid adhesion of the copper to the target metal) apart from that, you just need an acid to chemically clean the target, sodium persulfate, sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, something like that. don't use nitric acid as it eats almost anything and will turn your skin yellow......it also stinks really bad. if I thnk up anything else, I'll let you know, but lots of miscelleneous chemicals are readily available at wour local meijer or wal mart as long as you know what to look for. have a nice day and ride safe

[AlanB]

Hi Lorax,

Things may have different names on the other side of the pond, but over here, "Baking Soda" and "Bicarbonate of Soda" are the same thing; sodium bicarbonate.

"Baking Powder" is VERY different; Just Flour, with a bit of baking soda and some other stuff in it.

Apologies if the language does not transfer.

AlanB

[dbeardslee]

I checked the tank this a.m. and was really impressed with the job electrolysis is doing. Almost the entire tank is clean and shiny. Even the fuel meter got cleaned. I still have some black gunk up towards the front of the tunnel, but I don't think it's corrosion. Looks more like a failed attempt at coating. Gonna try a little paint stripper on that tomorrow.

Lorax - I'm gonna have to take a ride out by your place one of these days. I finally painted Betsy, so I'm no longer embarassed to let other xsives see her The weather's been so nice around here lately - You up for a little ride, maybe sometime this week?

[The Lorax]

If I'm in town, I'm up for it. I travel a good bit, although it tends to come in streaks but am usually home on the weekends. let me know when and I'm ready. I however am still embarrassed of the condition of my XS. I paint it every year, and usually within a week, something happens to the pain job...usually gasoline damage. doesn't matter, come ahead, we'll blast for a bit, haven't had the time (wind damage to the trees, and been in Stuebenville, OH most of last week) I've finished cleaning up the yard and am definitely up for a ride. I am usually available @ 937-361-6841. it's my mobile number and I usually have it on me, else leave me a voice mail and I will get back to you with relative quickness. may haps we should roll through Fairborn and get Bluejeeplab while we're at it, could be fun. all I got for now, have a nice day and ride safe

[Geezer]

Originally posted by dbeardslee
I checked the tank this a.m. and was really impressed with the job electrolysis is doing.

Have you considered doing up a tech tip showing the process. I've got a couple of takes that I'm planning to try this on...

I've got a couple of 1# tin bars to use if tin electroplating works well.

Geezer

[ClarkGriswald]

Be ready when your done because this clean metal your gonna be left with will flash rust really fast. A lot of times when I just used muriatic to remove rust, I would hose it off with water and then just immediatly spray it with penetrating fluid.. displaces the water and keeps it from rusting.. then later I would clean it with solvent/xylol whatever to take the oils off before painting ect.

better be ready with something.

Unless your really plating or whatever. or hair dryer to dry it fast. and coat it .. I did the POR-15 kit to mine.. works good..

[dbeardslee]

Lorax - I'll give you a jingle this week.

Geezer - Here's my ancient chinese secret . After checking the prices on the chemicals and unpredictability of the results, I think I'm just going to use the Caswell Plating material. $32 plus shipping, and I know what the results will be.

Clark - penetrating oil sounds like a good idea. When I coated the last tank I did the drywall screws with laquer thinner, followed by an acetone bath and a blow dry from my compressor. The Caswell Plating stuff just requires the removal of big flaky pieces of rust, so a little surface rust wasn't a problem. Still, I like it to look shiny when I look down inside. I think I'll hit it one more time with electrolysis immediately before coating.

I decided I didn't want to take a chance on scrapping another tank. My current plan is to acquire another seat, already have another set of side covers, and with the tank I have a complete 'paint set'. Right now the color is candy apple red metallic, but I think I'll paint another set metallic black. Then I can just do a quick switch on the parts and have a totally different look.

[Geezer]

Thanx for the link... I'm going to try this as soon and I can get a tub big enough to hold a standard tank. I have 2 of them that have just a little rust in them.

I have the power supply from the electroplating kit that was given to me to power the operation. I figure if I could do pretty good copper plating when I was 13, I don't see how hard to could be to try it now.

I used to have a book that had all the formulas for electroplating common metals but I lost it in one of my moves probably 20 years ago and I'm going to look into the subject at the local library. I have the tin stash I was saving to harden bullet casting lead that I could use but I'm going to shoot for copper first. Most good electroplating jobs have a thick coat of copper under the top metal. How good a job that can be done inside the tank is the big question.


Anyway thanx again for the info and the blow by blow results.

Geezer

[latexeses]

In my first , very misplaced, question in this forum was on the subject of a rusted fuel tank.
The last thing that came to mind for coating the inside of the newly cleaned tank was piece of a zinc anode inside the tank with the positive a negative reversed to draw the zinc to the tank metal.
Has anyone given that a try? Should I be the first?
Wouldn't a light coat of zinc coat and treat the bare steel or am I way off base here?
Any thoughts?

[Geezer]

Zinc coating on steel is usually referred to as galvanizing and is done on almost every steel trash can. If you can get it plated on, it should do a great job. I don't know zip about how to plate the inside of a tank but I guess it's worth a try...

Geezer

[latexeses]

I was thinking of putting a light coat inside but don't know if the zinc would just go the the point of conection of the battery charger lead.
I have a clean tank-- The electrolisis worked like a charm. I thought the tank had mild rust until I turned that Sodium Carbonate loose in there.
I might as well give it a shot.
Thanks for the boost, Geezer.

[3Phase]

I have been looking for ways to clean the rust out of my gas tank and seal it so it didn't rust again.

The electrolitic process removes the rust but causes hydrogen embrittlement. You have to anneal the tank to restore the desired elasticity to the steel as you really do not want a brittle gas tank. Annealing will almost certainly ruin the paint.

http://forum.ih8mud.com/40-55-series...-concerns.html

I considered galvanizing the tank but modern blended fuels are not good for galvanized tanks.

http://www.des.state.nh.us/factsheets/rem/rem-26.htm

Materials Compatibility

Petroleum storage tank systems designed and installed after 1981 should not experience a compatibility issue due to the introduction of an ethanol-blend gasoline. For those systems installed prior to 1981, the manufacturer should be contacted to determine compatibility.

Many materials, such as zinc-galvanized metals, Buna-N seals, neoprene seals, urethane rubber elastomers, polyurethane, and alcohol-based pipe dope polymers may not be compatible with the use of an ethanol-blend gasoline. Tank owners should perform the following three steps prior to receiving the first shipment of an ethanol-blend gasoline:

Check with your tank, pump, and piping manufacturers to determine if the material of manufacture is compatible with an ethanol-blend gasoline.

If your tank has been lined, check with the lining company to determine if the lining material and/or adhesive is compatible with an ethanol-blend gasoline.

If the interior of your tank has been repaired, check to make sure the area of repair will not deteriorate upon the introduction of an ethanol-blend gasoline.

I haven't decided what to do for my tank and there are real drawbacks to almost every rust removal procedure and coating material I've looked at so far.

I am seriously considering a light gold plate inside the tank. It is expensive. Unfortunately, gold cyanide electroplating solution will kill you and it's not easy to get rid of the spent solution. You cannot even purchase it in some areas.

I've never used electroless gold plate in a fuel tank but I'm looking into it.


Regards,

Scott

[latexeses]

And I thought the price of fuel was high.

Looks as though the Govt. has figured out a way to keep all of the older vehicles off the road. If it isn't the emissions regulations, they might be able to get us by feeding us a hydoscopic fuel that will destroy the inside of the device meant to carry it. Anyone building a Ethanol approved XS11 fuel tank?
Copper may be the way to go.
I didn't know that about the zinc. Thanks

[tarzan]

hey 3phase was that article talking about the big storage tanks at the gas station?Are they made of the same material as our tanks?

[The Lorax]

I only did gold plating on a couple occasions way back when, I remember it kind of scared me as I had an acid cleaning tank about 18" from the gold tank with a water rinse tank between. it just takes a few drops of acid to release cyanide gas....not a good scene, make sure there's plenty of amyl nitrate (at least I think thats the stuff) around to use as an antidote. and you need to plate nickle first I think as gold sticks pretty well to nickle, but not so much to other metals....steel might be ok but at the cost of gold plating solution, I'm thinking one would want to put down a layer of copper then nickle before gold. I think plating would feasibly work, it should lay down an even coat regardless, watch the current density as it could make a mess of things, do a test shot, calculate the square footage of the outside of the tank, the inside should be close to the same, figure 15 to 20 amps per square foot and don't forget the molasses in the bath as a brightener. Plating isn't hard, it's just dirty work, it requires some technique, and if you spill solutions on your jeans, you will end up with a big hole in them. If it's something you want to play with, experiment with a soup can or something that has an inside and an outside to check how evenly the metal in question is deposited, and to make sure your bath is working as designed. any university library will have volumes of stuff on the subject, how to, ingredients etc. that's all I have for now, have a nice day and ride safe