Counter Steering

[Sandy H]

I am curently learning how to steer properly.
there was an article on this but I can't find it.
I had a small fall and am a little bie shy.
I am getting right back on the horse.

[bikerphil]

link

Try this link.....

http://xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=565&highlight=countersteering

[trbig]

This may sound funny... But get off that heavy bike and go ride a bicycle for a while. Same concept on the steering.. and it's good exercise!

Tod

[ClarkGriswald]

Trbig is right, ride a normal bike.. try making a figure 8 pattern, and then ride it in reverse for a while and then back.. switch to just a small circle. See how small of a circle you can continuously ride.. you WILL get better and better if you can do that. Also on same bike. Try to go as slow as you possibly can even in a straight line (its fun to put a multi gear bicycle in its lowest gear and keep pedaling and hold your brakes slightly, you can work your pedals against the resistance of the brake and go anywhere at about a billionth of a mile per hour.. Good practice..

I just took the skills test and was sad to see one older guy fail because he couldnt make the cones (got halfway thru).. everyone there even the crotch rocket guy tried to tip toe thru the course upright. Most were using their clutches to take the power off and slow down but it made them very erratic.. Noone countersteered until I took my turn. Not only can ya go thru the cones without even changing where your head is looking it makes U turns really easy. If that guy had brought the little elite scooter he was joking about bringing he would have passed it.. (here these 70+ guys are on these huge 1100 fake harleys, heck I couldnt have handled those like the XS and I used to race MX).

You can countersteer like that and just do circles on a patio with the bike a pretty extreme angle. Plus its fun.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Sandy,

You didn't say much about your fall? A spill like hitting sand/oil/water or attempting a turn too fast is one thing, but if it was a slow speed drop/fall, that's a different thing that Countersteering might not have helped anyways!?

But glad to see you wanting to continue riding and learning how to do it right, thankfully our "horses" aren't that tall!
T.C.

[Rhumba]

Simply put, bicycles and MCs need to lean to turn. Above about 5 miles per hour the steering is only used to initiate and hold a lean angle which causes the bike to turn. Below 5 MPH the handlebars are just turned towards the direction you want to go. And contrary to popular belief, ALL two wheel bikes use countersteering. Countersteering is not something that a rider chooses to do, it is necessary to cause the bike to lean and turn. Some riders do it and don't even realize they are doing it.

Try this. Get on your bike or MC and, going straight, push on the right handlebar. What happens? The bike leans to the right and goes to the right. This is how I learned how a MC steers.

Push right, Lean right, Go right.

There is a book out there called Proficient Motorcycling by David Hough (Huff). I found it indispensable in learning how to ride. When I was done with it I gave it to a new rider to pass on the knowledge.

Good luck and Ride Safe!

[oldyam80sg]

But watch out how you do steer.I know of several people that over emphasize going into turns and swing out over the yellow line.My friend did this to make a left turn going into his apartment complex-he swung over sharply right and a vehicle passed him and hit him.I guess that i don't think of how to steer anymore because you get used to it.Good luck.

[thewiz]

counter steering ...

Here's a link to lots of good info on riding and riding techniques

http://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/...echniques.html

Countersteering has help my riding skills alot. Believe me, they are necessary in metro SoCal. My skills were much in need of brushing up and even re-learning after getting back on a bike after roughly 25yrs of NOT riding.

[Sandy H]

counter steering

I went out with a couple of veterans to-day a did a run on
the forks.They gave me some valuble tips.
They put me in the middle and away we went.
There is nothing like just getting out and doing it.
Thanks for the input.

[Ivan]

Why Countersteer?

Any rotating object has gyroscopic stability proportional to the mass of the object and the amplitude of rotation.

Also, any rotating object undergoes gyroscopic precession . Simply put, any force applied to a spinning object will have a resultant reaction 90º afterward in rotation.

Therefore, at speeds where the gyroscopic force of the wheel exceeds the force input to the handlebars, the bike countersteers. When you push on the right handle, you are imparting a force vectored right to the back of the wheel, not accounting for steering axis rake, etc. Since the wheel is spinning forward, the result is a force to the right at the top of the wheel. This makes the bike lean right.

Same goes for helicopters. to tip the nose forward, lift is increased on the retreating blade. The upward force is transferred to the rear of the heli and the nose drops.

So, in effect, when you push on the right handle, you are actually pushing the bike over to the right.

Now that we are leaned over and turning, we are imparting a new force. We are rotating both wheels in the direction of the turn, which is opposite the force we put on the handle bar, and actually makes the bike want to self right itself. When we are turning right, the wheels are rotating right, and that is equivalent to putting a leftward force on the rear of the wheel (think clockwise when looking down from above), and the result is a leftward force at the top of the wheel, which tends to push the bike upright. Much the same as rolling a coin on the table and it doesn't just flop over. Instead it spirals around until friction slows the coin to the point gravity overcomes the opposing gyroscopic precession.

All this spinning is making me dizzy.

[fredintoon]

As has been said, countersteering is the only way a two wheeled vehicle will go around a corner. That's why children have trouble learning to ride a bike. They are transitioning from riding a tricycle and tricycles DON'T countersteer so the child is already patterned to turn the bars the opposite way to what's needed for a bicycle and they don't understand this and the parent running behind holding the saddle don't understand it either. And apart from not having someone running behind holding the seat, that's why middle-aged guys switching to sidecar rigs or to trikes have difficulties learning to operate their new toy, they have to UNlearn the countersteering technique that some of them didn't even know they were using.

[Rhumba]

There is a scientific article on the net that claims that gyroscopic force, once thought to be the reason why bikes and MCs stay upright, has been disproven as such and that the only thing keeping a bike or MC upright is balance.

The book I mentioned earlier states that as well but in different terms. The front wheel is never directly in line with the rear for very long because the bike is constantly trying to fall over and as we ride we are making small, imperceptible adjustments to keep the bike balanced.

He illustrated it with a straight line representing the rear tire track and an "s" line (the front wheel track) constantly weaving from side to side over the straight line.

He also described turning as a styrofoam cup laid on it's side. When you push it along it turns in a circle because one end is smaller in diameter than the other. This is what happens to the bike when it is leaned over. The tires are rolling on a smaller diameter the farther the bike leans, therefore turning sharper with increasing lean angle. (larger difference between the end diameters of the "cup"). This made sense to me anyway.

[mro]

bike is constantly trying to fall over and as we ride we are making small, imperceptible adjustments to keep the bike balanced.

If true .... why do we see so many bikes keep going all by themselves when the rider has fallen off


mro
BTW, food for thought
Airplanes... wings are designed for "lift".
When you look at a wing design drawing which shows the "forces" applied and air flow try to show why the wing has "lift".
Why does the same wing not run the plane into the ground when the plane flies upside down???

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Mro,

I believe it's also more of a balance thing. Look at those little model/toy motorized motorcycles, or just a bicycle that you push fairly fast. The weight/mass of the wheels is not enough to provide true centrifugal/petal forces to stabilize the toy keeping it upright. As the bike rolls along, if it starts to lean ie. left, the wheels start to run on the left edge which is less circumference, and the wheels will travel farther to the left pulling the bottom of the frame left moving the balance point now to the right pulling the frame back towards the right, then it repeats the process, wandering back left and right until it finds or maintains a "balance" point...until it slows down beyond the speed capable of this maintenence process!!
T.C.

[mro]

"balance" implies equalization of forces.

There needs to be another factor involved to "right" a leaning bike. I've seen racing video where the bikes leaned over 45 degrees and the bike is being "balanced" by the rider and then the rider falls off, the bike rights itself with out the rider and continues until it slows or hits something. If all it was is balance, the bike would just stay up right when it slowed and stopped.


mro