Valves too tight, chain skipped?

[ClarkGriswald]

Ok need some help with this one please.. Today I took off the cam cover and tried checking my valve clearances. Now, I cant find my nice feeler gauge that has lots of small increments but I did get a new one that isnt quite good enough but at least had enough sizes close to each other to find out if I was at least in the ball park..

All of the 4 Ins and 4 Exh were too close by a lot. Imagine this feeler gauge is in fairly large steps and all of em couldnt take anything until I got at least 3 or 4 leafs thinner than what the minimum should be. intakes should be .16-.20 well mine were down around .07 or something same thing with the exhausts several sizes down.


Now that got me thinking. When I fist started the bike the cam chain was pretty noisy, I only ran it a few seconds before I stopped and lined up the "C" mark and adjusted it.. and it has run real good since even with low comps on 1-3 (god knows how).

Well then I got to searchin the forum and think I found a little info.. I went out there and turned the timing mark to the "T" mark and the lines on the right side of the cam chain gears do not point up rather almost towards each other.. intake mabye at 2:00 on a clock , exhaust at mabye at 10:00..

What am I missin?

PO's jumped a chain?

[bikerphil]

cams

The dots on the cams should line up with the arrows on the center cam caps. Look for them from the left side of the bike.

[ClarkGriswald]

Ok my mistake I was just out there and realized where the dots are, cam not sprocket he.. ok so forget about that part the cams are aligned right and the C mark is pretty accurate with em so Im ok there.

Still with too tight of valve clearances, this might be my lack of compression if the valves are open for too long? Makes sense to me but not sure why they would be that way. Mabye a PO did something to the valve guides/ lapping, wouldnt that make the valve move up slightly?? then need to readjust via thinner shims??.. If they skipped the shims then it could be too tight?? thats my guess

By the way I noticed that the first two bearing caps on the intake cam are in the wrong order and pointing to the left instead of right.. all the rest are right.

[mro]

For an 1980 engine:

Intake .11 to 15mm or .004 to .006 in
Exhaust .21 to .25mm or .0083 to .0016 in


mro

[bikerphil]

shims

Here's a good source for inexpensive valve shims if you need them...

http://www.crc2onlinecatalog.com/valve_shims.htm

If the valves were lapped, it makes sense that the clearances are too tight. Youre gonna have to take the shims out to see what number is stamped on the bottom for proper adjustment. Might wanna check those backward caps to see if they are scored.

[ClarkGriswald]

Ah I was wondering about the 80 motor, couldnt find a different spec in the back of the clymer manual (supplement chapter for the later bikes).

Main part of the book says .21-.24 for exhaust, and .16-.20 for intakes.

Still Im quite a bit tighter than those other specs also.. I really need to find my other feeler gauge with the small sizes. For better accuracy, and yeah I dont have the little hold down tool for gettin the shims out.. probly could make one but would be a pain. Wheres that dang magic wand when ya need it?

My buddy that gave me the bike, said that the guy that he got it from is part of a family of good mechanics so I suspect that he may have done what he thought was right to make the valves seal but never did the shims, that would be my guess.. so mabye theres hope for the ole girl .. although still dont explain why number 4 is up to good comp and the other three arent, might still need more miles to reseat.

[randy]

ClarkGriswald;

On these bikes, it's normal for the valve clearances to tighten up over time as the valves wear into the seats. This is a normal maintenance item, corrected by replacing shims to get the clearances back to spec.

[prometheus578]

"Read your Clymer's, not just look at the pictures"

On the third page, in the front(Page # VII), you'll find the Quick Reference Data.
Ok... Lapping valves,etc...
Bah!
Valves wear.
And as they wear... they hammer themselves up further into the head. This is normal.
And as they move upward, the clearances between the valve shims and the cams decrease.
That's why you have to check your clearances every so often.

Ok, here's the first thing you need to do. Run to the nearest auto parts store and buy a set of feeler guages. They don't have to be metric. (See the arguement)
http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread...highlight=.002

Anyway... Get a piece of paper and a writing implement and draw a big "H". Label one side of the "H" INTAKE and the other EXHAUST.
Now check all your clearances and mark them on the paper.
(EXAMPLE: #1 intake is maybe .004... #2 intake is maybe .005, #1 exhaust is...)
Now you have a record of which clearances need changing and what the starting clearance are.
If you have more than a coupla clearances to change... it's easier(and quicker) to just pop up the cams to change them. (Trust me on this). Plus, I'd fix those backward cam caps while I'm at it.
Anyway... turn the crank pointer to the "C" mark. Remove the cam chain tensioner to give you the slack you'll need to lift the cams up.
To help ensure that everything stays in time, take some fingernail polish and mark the cam chain next to the cam gears, so you can easily see if you jump a tooth.
Anyway... remove the cam caps a little at a time so the cams lift evenly.
There.. you now have access to the valve shims.
One at a time, remove the shims from the valves that need adjusting and write down their numbers. The thickness number is written on the bottom of the shim.
Figger out which "new" shim number you'll need to get the clearances that you want.
(Often, a shim that was wrong for one valve... will be the shim size that is needed for another valve.)
Anyway... You now have a handfull of shims that you can't use. You have a few options.
Buy new ones at $5 per.
Take the old ones (and a cold six pack) to a friendly dealership and see if they'll swap them out.
Send a PM to John as he holds the Valve Shim Library. Send him the shims that you don't need, and he'll send back the replacement sizes you do need.(Yes, you pay for shipping)
Place the new shims where they belong(with the numbers facing downward so that the lettering doesn't rub off) and tighten and torque back down the cam shafts.
Put your finger in the cam chain tensioner hole, and while putting force against the cam chain guide, rotate the engine till the "C" mark comes up again. (I say do this step, as the position of the cams may have changed.. allowing slack on the side that should be tight) Ensure that everything is still in time
Reinstall the cam chain tensioner as per instructions.
Recheck all valve clearances to ensure you didn't dick things up.

[John]

Yeah

What he said!

[ClarkGriswald]

Ok, I made a tool from some osage orange. REALLY hard wood. I can push the lifters down by hand and get the shims out.. Ive written them all down and also recorded the clearances with the feelers I bought earlier today( not my good ones that have small increments and are all small sizes.) .. but anyway. #1 intake is zero clearance. Its also the smallest size shim I have in there so Ill have to use a smaller shim to even measure it. But they are all back in there little spots again. I really do need my other or a new feeler that goes down to smaller increments so I can get it closer.

By the way it helps however you hold down the lifter if you use the tiny screwdriver to flip it up out of the lifter.. but then I used a small rare earth magnet from an old hard drive that I wrapped in a few layers of a ziplock bag and grabbed with a smaller needle nose vice grip.. once ya flip the shim up just lift it out with the magnet. Now I instantly took the shims off the magnet so as not to magnetize them.. just a tip.

Amazing how I always seem to go from stumped and at a stand still to accomplishing it hahhaha.. weird ..

hm i take that back i do have one smaller shim.. i could switch it into #! in and check it
dangit its gettin cloudy gotta go clean up my tools and wrap the bike up in plastic.. dang it..

[trbig]

Hey Pro... At what point do you spin the crank to the "T" mark to check the timing with the cam dots? Or do you just trust the nail polish marks??


Tod

[ClarkGriswald]

I like the idea of loosening the cams.. one Idea would be to make some wood shims that dont have any loose slivers to fall in but as you loosened the cam up just kinda stick em under it by hand and it would lift and hold it up and wont scratch anything.

I think I'lll just continue on like I did em. But since I have to swap those 2 bearing caps. I think loosening all the caps on that cam and retoruqing them all together would be the way.. so perhaps Ill do that yet.


I appreciate having someone to bounce ideas off off thanx again everyone.. Ill keep chuggin along but now its time for a shower and some Bells beers..

[ClarkGriswald]

Ok while Im stalling to make dinner , might be a good time for a quick story.

I went into my local dealership (honda,yamaha). And I went to the service department hoping this one guy was working, he had several Xj's .. Well some other kid comes out.. Ive probly been working on and rebuilding motors since before he existed, or at very least was a kid. With that said I commend him on trying to sell service, thats their job I understand that.
But I just wanted to ask if they would exchange shims for a small fee.. well his overall demeaner was that something like that should be done by them not the regular people.. (he lost me right there), then as I was asking about the shims he started telling me about how the shims are under the "bucket" and right on top of the valve and how it takes "several special tools" to do this job.. and something about taking off a cam or both.. well now I knew he was mistaken on this particular motor but was just gassing off still trying to get me to bring it to them (I never bring anything I own anywhere to anyone).

Plus I most recently come from the full size jeep world and all of those are old old .. Im used to this stuff, and doing your homework is everything.. plus great forums such as this one. (My enCYCLOpedia).

Finally for fun I asked how much to adjust my valves, hahah.. He muttered about for a few mins and finally said 200 or 250 "depending" .

At one point I said, come on its not hard heck I just had all the countershaft gears out and ground the dogs/slots, at which time he seemed suprised at such a ridiculous thing, and told me that it probably didnt do anything for me (COME ON MAN!! It wouldnt even stay in 1st under tiny power let alone 2nd, now Ive hit it full bore for 100 miles with no probs and in fact I RODE IT HERE!) At this point it was gettin funny.. He told me that its usually the shift fork grooves in the gears wearing out.. (hmm steel wears out more than aluminum?? ). So thats it just thought yall might get a kick out of that..

[prometheus578]

Thanks for pointing that out, TRBIG.
Yeah, after reinstalling the cam chain tensioner at the "C" mark, spin the crank to the "T" mark and check the alignment dots on the cams.
Well, ya can't blame the guy at the shop. Changing shims, while a simple operation, does have it's complicated points if you're not paying attention. And no matter how detailed I explained it to some people, there were always a few who would end up having to trailer their bike to the shop after they bent a valve or two.
As for the price... oh, it's about correct, give or take.
Estimate how much time you've got in it already... add in how much time it took to finish, and multiply by an average shop labor rate of $85 per hour.
There is also no way for a shop to know of every little "unofficial" modification that owners come up with... 30 years after the bike leave the production line. I'm sure that somewhere in the "Technical Updates" files, they've got a copy of the bulletin outlining replacement of the worn tranny gears with the newer design. For product liability reasons, dealerships often can't do things like modifing gear dogs and such.
Oh, I knew a few ways to cut corners and save the customer costs.... but if I screwed up, or the "tip" didn't work properly, it was my ass... not Kawasaki's.
Working on your own bike... well, that's different.

[ClarkGriswald]

Yeah I totally understand pro, I wasnt really mad at him or anything. There must be some other setup where the shims are down there and he had it confused so its all good but when ya know its differnet it makes the conversation weird and ya dont quite know where to go anymore hehe.. Like I said I commend him on trying to sell their service department thats what he should do, and your absolutley right that to tell customers they can do all these crazy things we do isnt responsible from a dealer standpoint that has to support a product according to specs.. I have a really good ole friend in kalamazoo that runs a bike shop, another friend of ours used to complain Im guessing cause he thought he deserved more of a discount and that our buddy was a "ruthless businessman".. well I kept telling him hey man he gives us the good guy discount what else do you want?? you know how many friends he has? if they all came in and wanted everything for free where would he be?? hehe.. I have respect for him he does a great job..

Be honest I felt kinda stupid walking out of that dealership after that guy told me it was different than I know it to be cause Im usually way more confrontational, in your face.. but I knew it was a misunderstanding so its all good, life is too short.. (learned that a lot this year). I think the only reason that it bothered me was because I put myself in the shoes of the average consumer that is not a mechanic.. they would have walked out of there with the wrong information, then the guy would have opened it up and went "whoops, that guy was right" .. Im sure all would have still been ok but if your not positive about something I dont think you should just say what you think it is and keep goin (again I'm sure it was a mistake though the guy was nice enough). ( and im a super skeptical old bastage, usually I hand someone there own tail if I catch em BSing me). .. Ok enough on that hehe.. was just buggin me.

By the way Thank you everyone here.. Although I'm a mechanical person and am a sort of jacka$$ of all trades and have had bikes all my life.. all of the things specific to this bike, I have learned here from all you people. When I talk about doin my homework it means searching these forums and I'm totally gratefull for the resource. Half a week before I did my gears, I had never heard of that before either.. I dont claim to know anything but once its in my bean can, its over... somethings gonna happen. So thanks for the ammo..

(this one might be a confucious but, something like... The beginning to the path to true wisdom is first admitting that we know nothing. ) not sure if thats word for word or whatever but I always liked it.. Also the litany against fear from the "Dune" books.. good stuff.. )