Clutch adjustment - again!

[aaawood]

Hey all,

I am still struggling with my clutch adjustment. I will try to detail what I have done and maybe that will shed some light. 1980 Special.

Bike was creeping in first gear with clutch lever fully squeezed. Checked the adjustment at the arm and it seems to be as it should. Took pressure off before I did that. Bike went into gear ok. Still creeped. Figured cable is old and stretched.

Bike came with a new replacement. Identical. Installed it and attached it at the lever first and then the adjustment arm. Nut on the adjuster arm was tight. Figuring I’m good to go, squeeze clutch, drop it into first and clunk, stall. Does that a few times. Make adjustments at the lever with no change. Weird.

Put old cable back in. Miraculously, it goes into first. Went in hard with a lurch and still creeping. Adjust at lever to get more throw but now back to the clunk and stall.

Check through oil fill cap and notice the disks (don’t know what they are) associated with the clutch. They move in sync when the hand lever is moved, but not as much travel as I would have expected – maybe 3/16. I don’t know how much travel is needed to disengage things, but this seems small. If I screwed up the ball bearings in the adjustment arm, would the clutch still move when the lever is squeezed?

Cable arm seems to have good travel. As it moves up, it moves in and moves in enough that it almost touches the housing.

Tonight was supposed to be the maiden voyage – scuttled again.

Thoughts
1. Maybe its needs a good ride, but I can’t get it into first.
2. I screwed up the ball bearings in the adjustment process.
3. Could worn clutch springs be a factor?
4. Anything I might look for behind the cover – bummer to have to pull it, but…

Anyways, thanks for reading. I’m new to this stuff and just praying that I’m not mucking anything up.

Thoughts appreciated.

Steve

[hamjam]

Hi Steve
Did you adjust both ends of the cable ??
I think I sent a message about the procedure , hope i was clear enough let me know OK
the other thing that sometimes works is to put the bike on the centre stand (you too so it won't head out the door without you) and try and start it and put the brake on "abruptly" that might loosen up the plates
but it sound like they are moving
lots a luck
Jim

[Ken Talbot]

Steve, you're adjusting the clutch at the wrong end. The cable adjustments are only for adjusting to the corrrect amount of slack after you have done the adjustment under the sidecover:

[oldnortonrider]

What makes you say ".....you screwed up the 'ball bearings' ...."?

[oldnortonrider]

Git yer 12mm box end wrench and Phillips screw driver that'll fit the Phillips slot. Back off the clutch cable adjustment at the handlebar to give a little slack before you do your part in the picture. Brake loose the 12mm locknut (shouldn't take much); unscrew it a bit to where it won't interfere with your screw adjustment. Screw in (tighten) the phillips until it feels like it's "snugging up a bit"~~now back it off just a tad~~if everything is in pretty good shape with your clutch, about an eighth turn backed off will be good; hold the screw in place and "snug" the 12mm locknut. Now readjust at the handlebar. You can roadtest without putting the cover back on. Print this out and what "hamjam" put in the other thread to do this. He's telling you how to do this proper. Go slow and read these steps as you go. If those balls haven't misplaced, it cain't not work. If all else fails, tighten the cable at the clutch lever, to where you think by then, it should be too tight. Don't worry about it slipping for right now; question is~~has the "clunk" gone away? And is it still pulling forward with the clutch pulled in. If when you ride it, the clutch slips, we can back you down from there. Main thing, get it to shift. I always start mine in gear; they'll always clunk some. That rounds off the dogs in the transmission, and eventually it'll start jumping out of first on strong accelaration.

[aaawood]

Thanks guys,

I definitely started with the adjustment under the cover.

I can't seem to get much slack at the lever - it loosens, but just. Its doubtful I have 2-3 mm of slack with the screw all the way in at the lever. OldNorton - that is why I was wondering if I had dislodged the steel balls in that mechanism. Maybe I turned the screwd too much or the lever was moved with the nut loosened. I don't think I did that. I read somewhere that if you do dislodge the bearings, the mech will not work as it should, but I seem to get movement in the clutch as soon as the lever is depressed.

I was using the lever adjustment to get more throw - is this wrong? Screwing the adjustment screw out of the lever seems to lift the arm a bit - giving me more disengagement. It does seem tight though - I'm probably 2/3 out of the lever now (still with old cable) and decided to stop - should I give it a few more turns out?

Off on business travel until Firday night, but hopefully back on this Saturday - thanks so much for the responses and ideas.

Steve

[stevec5000]

Since my XS1100 was new the clutch has been sticking so badly that it can't be put into gear while it's running and nobody that I've talked to knows what could be wrong. The P.O. broke first gear trying to jam it into gear so I only use 2-5 and I put it in gear before starting the engine and that breaks it loose! After that it drives OK unless I stop and put it in neutral then it will probably stick again. I have a new set of gears to put in but would like to find a way to fix the clutch before doing that. The levers and cable are adjusted properly and work fine but oil sticks the discs together and they won't separate when the clutch is operated. I tried new Barnett clutch plates but that just made it worse and it was hard to shift while driving too. I've replaced the entire clutch assy. 3 times but that didn't help much either. If I take it all apart and clean everything and put it back together dry it works perfectly until it gets coated with oil then the plates stick together again like glue. Changing the oil helps a little but only for a short while. The best thing I've been able to do for it is to drill the metal discs with holes like you do a brake disc and that helped somewhat but it still sticks in neutral. I found by accident that if I slow the idle down to about 500 RPMs it will usually shift OK unless the engine dies.
Does anyone have any ideas on how to stop the oil sticking the discs together at normal idle speed?

[Ken Talbot]

Originally posted by aaawood
I can't seem to get much slack at the lever - it loosens, but just. Its doubtful I have 2-3 mm of slack with the screw all the way in at the lever.

Remember, you can get more cable slack with the adjustment at the other end of the cable. Not the screw and nut adjustment under the cover, but the cable adjuster on the lower end.

[oldnortonrider]

aaawood ~~ Screw the Phillips adjustment screw in again til it feels right per instructions already given. LOCK IT. Adjust at the lever all the slack, or most of the slack out of the cable. The only reason you need any slack at the cable at all, is to make sure the cable's not pulling so taught on the clutch lever (below), as to have clutch already partially engaged. If it was doing that, it would slip, under a good bit of power.

Forget about giving it more THROW . That Phillips screw needs to be adjusted right, while you completely ignore where that arm is going. LOCK IT. Finish slack adjust at clutch lever above. Adjust to where you nearly got NO slack, and try it.

Keep goin'; yer getting closer.

[tarzan]

Stevec5000
I have a wr200 that the clutch stuck like that.I had a hard time breaking the clutch loose.It took me a while to figure it out.Every time I started it cold it would stick. Well I had changed to a different oil the prvious fall before I stored it.I went back to the old type of oil and that went away. Hope that helps you.

[stevec5000]

Originally posted by tarzan
Stevec5000
I have a wr200 that the clutch stuck like that.I had a hard time breaking the clutch loose.It took me a while to figure it out.Every time I started it cold it would stick. Well I had changed to a different oil the prvious fall before I stored it.I went back to the old type of oil and that went away. Hope that helps you.

No, I've tried all sorts of different oil except synthetic and it hasn't made much difference.

[oldnortonrider]

Steve, it looks like you've tried everything there is to do. I just did
a clutch job~~new steels, new frictions, new springs. I was scared on this job all the way. It works like a dream. I put this job off for three years. Nothing about the clutch was working like it should by the time I did the job. It was beginning to be an unhappy experience every ride. Only three possible things, I mighta done, different, to make this work and operate like a dream. I soaked the friction plates for three days. The crosshatch method I used on the springs, I did by hand with a T wrench 10mm from the beginning. Use plenty of light; this'll take an easy 20 minutes. While you're going back and forth, watch real close the star plate going inward in the basket. The thickness of the lip(s) of the starplate will gradually, slowly, slowly move inward. Be eyeballin' this real close in conjuction with whether it looks like it's flat and true, not at a different angle from the clutch basket. Before you've gotten too far on your crosshatch, make sure you've got a good strong flashlite to check that the springs areall the same the way they're catching on the lip on backside of the star. I had to use a jewelers screwdriver to kinda jiggle one of mine to set right. You really gotta start checking those springs fairly early in your crosshatch. Keep checkin' 'em. You've gotta get your body in all contorted positiions, especially the underneath ones. My plan was to take it up to what I would guess would be about 50 inch pounds, by hand, and go the rest of the way with the inch pound torque wrench. Slowly, slowly, doing about 1/3 rotate, you can see it going in; if you mistakenly skip one in your crosshatch of six~~next time you're at the one you skipped, it'll be fingerloose!!
This went on forever; that's what you want, otherwise it won't be even. After a while, the star looked like it was in deep enough, to where I was starting to worry that I was going to use up all my spring compression. and the 10mm spring tightening bolts were still fairly easy to turn by hand. AND THEN, all of a sudden, they got tight, and I couldn't do them by hand. I'm thinking~~dang, I've bottomed out my springs. Get the torque wrench~~and set it to about 55-60 (inch pounds)~~going to work up to around 85. I'm thinking, ?I may already be at that level. When I started in again on crosshatch, they turned easy with the torque tool, and did not "click out" on the low "55-60" setting, until I gone around the six a time or two. The rest, same routine, next setting 65-75; when it started clicking out again~~reset to 80-85. And completed .

Last item~~adjustment of the clutch arm. I may have made this complicated, but it's gotta be foolproof. Have the clutch cable, not connected to the arm. The shaft that the arm goes on, moves in and out as the ball mechanism raises and lowers the part that will be centered and pushing the clutch apart. When I cleaned that housing cover for the new gasket, the arm was moving around, to where if I didn't secure it, those balls would tumble out. I took a small ziptie and positioned and turned the arm and shaft in it's most farthest pulled out position. Same position, where it would be when clutch should be fully released. In this position the balls were most secured. After putting on the cover slash housing, I then take the ziptie off that's holding clutcharmapparatusballsetc.~~by then I'm feeling that the whole entire future of the motorcycle was being held together~~depended on that ziptie. Ziptie off, I see what the arm wants to do. Not much movement, but some. OK, let's get that Phillips screw in and against what it's supposed to be against, stopped, backed up a tad, and locked. Clutch cable hooked up; had to take it loose at the handlebar clutch lever to be able to reach and hook up to the arm down below. The new clutch springs were putting more resistance than I wanted to fight against to pry up the arm.

One last thing, that I did different than you're probably doing. In my three day soak of the friction plates I used fully synthetic oil. My synthetic that I used for the soak and for all my oil changes is $11.00 per quart. I can't imagine the clutch plates wanting to stick together if you try it. ...............yes I can..........just thought of something else>>>>> cuz you're taking off in 2nd gear, that heats up the plates. Enough long and hard slips would warp some plates. Would glaze them more than normal. Probably won't glaze the same with the synthetic oil; also, all that clutch slippage will run cooler with the synthetic.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Steve,

Are you saying that you've had your 80MNS since it was NEW, and the clutch has stuck from day one??? I thought you said that there was a PO, so I'm thinking you mean NEW TO YOU???

Okay, you've had the clutch basket apart 3 times, tried Barnett plates....yeah, they stick even more from what I've heard, so no wonder they made it worse! Just want to review, have you seen the extra steel plate mod tip, the photos? Did you have and put back in the 2nd thrust washer that sits between the clutch boss assembly and the clutch housing on the INSIDE?? That 2 mm thick washer is what the inner clutch boss is stopped by when you pull the lever, pushing the star plate and the innermost pressure plate towards the engine compressing the clutch springs and allowing you to release tension on the plates by separating the pressure plates from the clutch boss! And there's a second thrust washer beneath the basket on the clutch shaft between the basket and engine case!

Also, the PO probably broke/bent the shift fork for 1st gear, not the gears trying to shift into 1st without being able to release the tension!? Do you know IF the PO had been in the clutch before you got it??

I thought I remembered a member with this similar problem, and that they had forgotten to put that inner thrust washer back in between the boss and the basket??

I thought I had seen it in my Clymers, about how the plates can get notches worn into the tabs that slide in the basket, and so they could hang up not allowing the plates to move/slide to separate, causing binding??

Did you check the steels for warpage when you had it apart?? Did you sand/emory cloth the steels to remove any possible varnish on them before reassembly?? Just trying to think of any possibilities??
T.C.

[stevec5000]

Thanks but it's not the springs or the clutch arm. I can look in the oil filler hole and see the pressure plate move away from the clutch discs when I operate the clutch but the plates all stay stuck together and won't release, even with no pressure on them. Only thing I haven't tried is brand new friction discs, all the ones I have tried are used ones from ebay. If that doesn't do it the only cure is going to be to redesign the clutch assy. with little springs between all the plates to push them apart when the lever is operated to release the pressure on the clutch pack from the pressure plate!

[oldnortonrider]

I used the Vesrah friction disks . Got them from DennisKirk.