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  • Backfiring/popping information

    Found this while researching...

    Burn Baby Burn

    The last thing I want to address today is the subject of deceleration backfire, or “popping”. This topic generates a lot of concern from inexperienced riders, or even from experienced guys who just hate the noise, so lets take a look at what causes it. But first things first, lets define the issue:

    Deceleration Backfire is caused by fuel burning in the exhaust manifold or header.

    No ifs ands or buts, that’s what causes it. But the bigger question is how does gas get there in the first place, and that’s a bit more complicated. Generally, there are a variety of ways it gets there, and a variety of things that can make the backfiring worse. But there’s a kicker, and something you should understand before we go any farther:

    A motor in perfect tune will exhibit deceleration backfiring.

    Therefore, just because your motor is banging it up, doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong. And consequently:

    Getting rid of the noise means de-tuning your motor.

    Yup. If you’ve jut got to eliminate that popping, you’ll have to accept the fact that your motor is going to be forced to run rich to do it, and that isn’t necessarily a good thing. So lets talk about what causes the problem.

    Ok, so you’re riding along at some given rpm, and suddenly you decide to decelerate, and you reduce the amount of throttle. This causes an “overrun” – that is, the motors rpm is turning faster than the fuel provided can support, so the motor begins to spool down. This causes a couple of things to happen.

    First, when you close the throttle, you are also closing the throttle plates. This reduces the air and fuel flowing into the motor, and increases the vacuum (lowers the pressure). This results in less air and fuel in the cylinder during the power stroke, which in turn results in a lower pressure in the combustion chamber. Remember I said earlier, that the A/F mix burns faster in proportion to the pressure applied? Well, when we reduce pressure this way, the mix burns slower. This results in two things happening.

    1. The lower burning fuel generates less heat, and the cooling effect of the non-burning fuel tends to “quench” the flame front, or slow it down even further. Because the mix is burning much slower, the exhaust valve can open before all the fuel is consumed, and the unburnt fuel is ejected into the exhaust.
    2. The engine designers, in order to promote smoother idling and better combustion, retard the spark when the throttle is shut, and this results in the mix being lit later.

    So, now we end up with unburnt fuel in the exhaust, and burning fuel being ejected into the exhaust, and bang! Backfire. In addition, Honda has added a device called a “programmed air injection valve” (Pair Valve) that actually injects some fresh air into the exhaust to help this process along – since fully burning the fuel results in cleaner exhaust. So the backfiring is not only a normal part of the engines operation, it’s also intentionally amplified by Honda! Of course, normally, that massive bazooka pipe Honda hangs on your bike hides most of the noise, but it’s there, even when you can’t hear it.

    So the bottom line, is: That backfiring is perfectly normal and expected. If you’ve just got get rid of it, that’s up to you. You’re entitled to set your motor up the way you want, and your goals are your goals. But don’t refer to it as “fixing” the popping. Rather, the correct way to think of it is “de-tuning a bit to get rid of the popping”.

    There are a few ways you can do this.

    First, use the stock pipe. It will hide the sound, by absorbing it into mass, and masking it with the larger baffle space. Second, you can add more fuel during deceleration. This has the effect of raising the chamber pressure slightly, which burns a little more before the exhaust valve opens. Lastly, you can remove the Pair valve, which reduces the amount of available oxygen in the pipe to burn the unburnt fuel.

  • #2
    Backfire thoughts...

    Ok, would it be true to say that any bike can/will backfire on deceleration with a non-stock exhaust?

    Furthermore...if one was to richen the mixture to help reduce backfire, could that adversly affect the performance of the bike?

    I am torn between trying to change mixture to help reduce backfiring...and possibly messing up how the bike runs or just dealing with the backfiring and having a well running bike.

    Appreciate any thoughts..

    Comment


    • #3
      Not necessarily true

      I have an aftermarket set of pipes and rarely have problems with backfire... (the bike... for those I KNOW are going to make a comment about that one)



      It was my understanding that a true backfire is from a rich setting (but I could be wrong) and yes... changing your mixture can have adverse affects on performance... but it is necessary to change it to better performance sometimes too.

      Have you changed the jets on your bike or messed with them at all? Are they at a stock setting? Sometimes there are some adjustments that have to be made after installing aftermarket pipes... especially if you go with a 4 into 1 set up.

      There is a chart in the Modifications Forum under Carbs that you can look at for reference for aftermarket pipes... DennyZ did some pretty good research on them...
      81 SH Something Special
      81 frame, 80 tank and side covers, 79 tail light and carbs, 78 engine, 750 final drive mod, Geezer rec/reg, 140 mains, LH wheels


      79 SF MEAUQABEAUXS
      81SH Nor'eas tah (Old Red)
      80 LG Black Magic
      78 E Standard Practice


      James 3:17

      If I can make at least one person smile, or pee their pants a little, or maybe spit out their drink; then my day is not wasted.

      “Alis Volat Propriis”

      Yamaha XS 1100 Classic
      For those on FB

      Comment


      • #4
        Here's the link to the reference I made...

        Jetting Recommendations
        81 SH Something Special
        81 frame, 80 tank and side covers, 79 tail light and carbs, 78 engine, 750 final drive mod, Geezer rec/reg, 140 mains, LH wheels


        79 SF MEAUQABEAUXS
        81SH Nor'eas tah (Old Red)
        80 LG Black Magic
        78 E Standard Practice


        James 3:17

        If I can make at least one person smile, or pee their pants a little, or maybe spit out their drink; then my day is not wasted.

        “Alis Volat Propriis”

        Yamaha XS 1100 Classic
        For those on FB

        Comment


        • #5
          backfire under deceleration

          Sometimes richening the pilot screw adjustment will minimize this. Look at the color of the plugs and find the leanest one and start with that carb pilot screw. On my SF, all it took was 'bout 1/8 - 1/4 turn open to reduce backfire. HTH
          2H7 (79) owned since '89
          3H3 owned since '06

          "If it ain't broke, modify it"

          Comment


          • #6
            ((I merged the threads, Wapam... easier to follow))
            "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!' ('Bones' McCoy)

            Comment


            • #7
              excellent - i was worried about my backfire a liitle bit but after 81xs said that 4-1's would do that and reading this, i can now ignore it. It's not too bad anyway.
              Si Parker
              '81 XS1100H

              Tkat brace, new coils/wires/plugs, refurbed carbs (thanks 81 xsproject), recon'd top end, windshield (thanks dpotter58), resprayed tank and panels, 4-1 exhaust, sweet xs pod filters, in line fuel filters, progressive springs, thick hand grips, jumped headlight relay.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ok, the guy in the article above... he is right, but is also wrong.
                (or maybe I am)
                I have no idea what year Honda he's talking about with this "programmed air injection valve" that inject air to promote burning. Carbs of our vintage sometimes had "air cut-off valves, which on decelleration, would open to enrich the fuel to stop backfiring/after burn.
                Many reasons cause back firing.
                Lean conditions cause backfiring.
                Lean conditions cause engines to run hot.
                Lean conditions increase the temp of exhaust gases.
                What is happening is unburnt fuel in the pipes is igniting/exploding.
                To ignite, one needs air.
                Normal exhaust has unburnt fuel left in it.
                It just needs more air and to be ignited to burn.
                A bike with a leaking header pipe gasket allows extra air to be mixed with this unburnt fuel. It provided the oxygen for the burn.
                Lean conditions raises the temp of the exhaust which can also ignite unburnt fuel.
                After market pipes, due to their free flowing nature, allows more air to be sucked through the engine... more air than fuel. You now have a hot, lean mixture. This raises temps.
                Not only can these high temps damage/melt pistons, but they can also provided the heat needed to burn exhaust gases in the pipes.
                New pipes often require rejetting... jetting up to a larger size... larger jet, more fuel. Engine runs cooler, temps stay manageable, Fuel doesn't re-ignite in the pipes during lean conditions such as decelleration.
                Free flowing air filters also cause lean conditions, which is why it's sometimes needed to rejet for those, as well.
                The color of your plugs is the best indication of what's goin' on in your cylinders.
                Exhaust is an exhausting subject.
                If you modify something on a bike, you often have to modify something else to even things out.
                Wapam... you may need to rejet. Most of the aftermarket pipe systems we put on customers bikes came with either new jets, or computer downloads to change the fuel mixtures or timing advance sequences.
                This is how the game is played.
                Popping in the exhaust(other than having an air leak in the system somewhere) is an indication of what's going on in the engine.
                Last edited by prometheus578; 05-01-2008, 02:51 PM.
                "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!' ('Bones' McCoy)

                Comment


                • #9
                  I see now..

                  you are running a 4 - 2 MAC system? That's what I have on my bike... I haven't had any problems with backfire and my carbs are running a little on the lean side...
                  (which was really a thrill after I had them all polished )
                  I'm running a 78 engine with 79 carbs though.
                  81 SH Something Special
                  81 frame, 80 tank and side covers, 79 tail light and carbs, 78 engine, 750 final drive mod, Geezer rec/reg, 140 mains, LH wheels


                  79 SF MEAUQABEAUXS
                  81SH Nor'eas tah (Old Red)
                  80 LG Black Magic
                  78 E Standard Practice


                  James 3:17

                  If I can make at least one person smile, or pee their pants a little, or maybe spit out their drink; then my day is not wasted.

                  “Alis Volat Propriis”

                  Yamaha XS 1100 Classic
                  For those on FB

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Mine only backfires on the left side. I think #1, that plug color tend to be a bit dark (ok black). I tried to adjust the mixture but it's still black.
                    79 XS11

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The pilot screw only adjusts the fuel for the idle mixture.
                      You may have a carb synch or float level issue.
                      Carb synch meaning the throttle plate for #1 is open more than the others(rich), or float level's too high in #1, again, a richer mixture.
                      Could have a spark plug that only fires when it feels about it, too.
                      "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a mechanic!' ('Bones' McCoy)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The Dragon has always popped/backfired on deceleration. I do not refer to it as a backfire as it is just a rythmic, low level, burbling pop, only on fairly fast deceleration. It has done it since I first saw the bike in 1981 and became more noticable in the late '80s after the Jardine 4>2 exhaust was installed. It was jetted up and up once more then jetted down one from original, then returned to original to make the plugs look right again. As it is not very loud therefore not irritating and it has been that way for all this time now, the only time that I worry about it is when it does NOT do it. Strangely enough, if it does not do it, it usually indicates that it wants a new set of plugs. I am sure that it is not any sort of vacuum or exhaust leak as I am sort of a meglomaniac about leaks of any type. (SWMBO just pointed out that "leaks" does not cover the whole spectrum, I am ignoring her for the time being, that is what she gets for reading over my shoulder)
                        The Old Tamer
                        _________________________
                        1979 XS1100SF (The Fire Dragon)
                        1982 650 Maxim (The Little Dragon)
                        another '82 650 Maxim (Parts Dragon)
                        1981 XS1100SH (The Black Dragon)

                        If there are more than three bolts holding it on there, it is most likely a very important part!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Just another little addition to Prom's Prose!

                          We have the wasted spark system, which means that the spark plug is FIRING during the exhaust stroke when the valve is open, and so could also lead to igniting unburnt fuel accumulated in the pipes during decel!

                          My 81SH liked to pop on decel a while back, but after I did the rebuild/big bore, and then rejetted, and also put on new exhaust header gaskets, it did it much less, but still does it depending on how high I've revved it when I shut down the throttle.

                          But....Godzilla is just growling cause it wants to go fast, not slow down!
                          T.C.
                          T. C. Gresham
                          81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                          79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                          History shows again and again,
                          How nature points out the folly of men!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for all the advice.

                            Excuse my ignorance but if I want to "richen the mixture" to possibly reduce popping, what exactly do I adjust to do that, ilde mixture, pilot jets,...?

                            Thanks again

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hey Wapam,

                              It's the Idle Mixture....Pilot Jet SCREWS, you can try turning them out 1/8 or 1/4 turns each and see how it behaves, sounds.

                              Of course, this is IF it's otherwise running strong in the upper RPM's. IF it's falling on its face under sustained hi throttle, then you may need to go up on the mains...follow the jetting guide in the tech tips for assistance there, depending on your mods, if any!
                              T.C.
                              T. C. Gresham
                              81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                              79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                              History shows again and again,
                              How nature points out the folly of men!

                              Comment

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