XJ starter problem...oil in starter?

[beegshot]

FYI, I searched "Oil AND starter", "Oil in starter", and "XJ1100 AND Starter". Read all the results, but no cigar. Long post, sorry.

82 XJ1100...lately it's been real slow to start. When cold it sounds like: UhRrrrrrr---UhRrrrrrr---Rrrrrr---Rrrrrr--Rrrr--Rrrr-Vroom. Hot, similar, but a little faster to start. I thought the battery was going, I've filled it with distilled water twice since it was new two years ago. So, I replaced it...it was bad. So, with a new battery, I get the same sound. Something must be wrong with the negative ground or the starter. Ground to engine and frame checks out clean and zero resistance. Starter relay is good.

So, I took the starter off and apart today. This is the first time the starter on this bike has been off and apart. Apart on the bench...it's full of oil. Burnt oil. Black, pitch black and it stinks. First, I don't think this starter is supposed to have oil in it. Am I right? I cleaned the brushes and brush holder with Carb cleaner and wiped down everything else. I was afraid to use any cleaner for fear of damaging the insulation. I checked the insulation resistance and continuity...all good. The brushes measure 0.35" (0.22" minimum). The brush springs are free and strong. Everything checks out okay. The commutator is pitted, but still measures 1.075" diameter (1.06" is minimum). I think the pits are from arcing through the oil...explains the burnt oil, too. The bushing is good and the gears are in good shape.

I put it back together and installed it on the bike. Hit the starter and was rewarded with the best crank I've had in months. Rrrr-Vroom. Sweet!

So, I replaced the paper gasket between the planetary and the plate with the bushing, but didn't do anything else. My guess is the oil will be back.

Is there supposed to be oil inside the starter? If not, where's it coming from. I didn't take the planetary gear apart, but I'm guessing it is supposed to be lubricated. But, how does the oil circulate?

Thanks for reading. I'd appreciate any help you can give.

Robert

[79XS11F]

No there is not suppose to be oil inside the starter. It's getting in there past a bad seal. Oil is moving all over the place inside the engine. Being thrown of moving gears etc. You might be surprised how much splashing is happening in the engine. Just fire up the engine with the oil filler cap off and watch oil being thrown out the filler hole as an simple example. Oil is making its way back along the starter shaft and into the starter.
Rob

[TopCatGr58]

There's a small O-ring near the engaging gear on the starter motor itself, and IS still available from yamaha or your dealer of choice, ie. BikeBandit, about $12.00! It may have gotten flattened with years of heat and compression.
T.C.

[randy]

You're in luck. Just rebuilt my starter this weekend. There is an oil seal inside the nose of the planetary gear unit. This is most likely the path of the oil. The seal # is

SD 17 32 7

If you remove the drive gear, spacers and triangular snap ring there sits a #6003 ball bearing. the oil seal is behind the bearing. The bearing is a loose fit, so it can be tapped out from the inside of the housing and you will see the seal.

[beegshot]

Bump - back into the viewable threads

Winter projects -

1st and 2nd gear Dremel fix. "Invested" in two Tungston Carbide cutters (square end and round end - I forgot the numbers) to do the work...$20 well spent, IMHO. Replaced all removed gaskets with Yamaha parts. I'm looking forward to running her WOT in 1st and 2nd.

Extra Steel Clutch Fix. Added a new steel as outlined in the tech notes. Should stop the slipping in 3rd. It really sucked not being able to run WOT in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gear. Clutch is TIGHT...tighter, in fact, than it was when I had that POS Barnett clutch/springs in her. Good forearm work-out! I see a new clutch cable in my future.

Starter Fix. Well, as predicted the oil was back in the starter. As soon as I started hearing the UhRrrrr, UhRrrrr...I knew what it was. Randy gets the prize. The seal behind the bearing in the planetary gear set must be the leakage path. There's no other place the oil could get through. I'll try to find the seal...and the o-ring on the starter itself. I pulled the gear, knocked the shaft out, and pulled the bearing. Any ideas on how to get the old seal out? I don't want to knock the bushing out of the housing. And, I don't have a seal puller. Hmmm, maybe time to buy a new tool [rubs chin contemplatively] Lastly, my home-made gaskets are still good. Yea!

Question: - Does the planetary gear set have any lubrication? Graphite or Tungston Di-Sulfide? Since it's on the "dry" side of the oil seal, it would appear that it runs without lubrication. Am I right? Don't forget, the first time I saw the inside of one of these things it was full of oil. So, I don't know what it's supposed to look like.

[randy]

Any bearing shop can match up the seal if you don't chew it up too bad getting it out, there are numbers stamed in the face. IIRC, there is a c-clip holding the bushing in the nose (?) then it comes out.

A few yrs back there was a guy on Ebay selling complete rebuild kits, for about $30 I got one and it came with everything. He's not there now, though

Oh, and the gearset, I lubed with a bit of axle grease. Not sure if it needs it, but seemed like a good idea.

[beegshot]

A'ight.

SD 17 32 7

Looking at Globalspec and some of the internet Oil Seal sites; it appears that the "S" in the part number indicates that the seal is made with a steel spring holding the sealing surface against the shaft, it fits over a 17 mm shaft, it fits inside a 32 mm hole, and it's 7mm thick.

You gotta love metric part numbers!

Thanks for the help.