Need some suggestions...

[madmax-im]

Well I went to order my new factory backcut gearsets 1st/4th and the 2nd/5th gearsets.from cycle-parts.com.They sent me an email informing me that the 1st/4th gears are ...Ofc ..back ordered so I have to decide real soon if I should cancel the order or wait for the gears to come in.They could not estimate how long that would be ...........SO does any one know where i can find these gearsets?????

[TopCatGr58]

You might try ZanottiMotors.com, BikeBandit, but I don't think any of these places that will sell them will necessarily be stocking them? I would think that they order them directly from Yamaha. And so since there may be a rush on these parts since folks have learned how to fix them, they may be on back order for a while?

Sounds like you might need to get the Die Grinder out afterall!? Or take them to a machinist to have them cut professionally! The machinist "MIGHT" even be able to reharden them after grinding them since he'll have to grind thru that hardened surface to get them undercut!?!?
T.C.

[madmax-im]

Originally posted by TopCatGr58
You might try ZanottiMotors.com, BikeBandit, but I don't think any of these places that will sell them will necessarily be stocking them? I would think that they order them directly from Yamaha. And so since there may be a rush on these parts since folks have learned how to fix them, they may be on back order for a while?

Sounds like you might need to get the Die Grinder out afterall!? Or take them to a machinist to have them cut professionally! The machinist "MIGHT" even be able to reharden them after grinding them since he'll have to grind thru that hardened surface to get them undercut!?!?
T.C.

TC it looks as though the dremel fix may be the way to go after all...since I have enlisted the help of a fellow XSive..randy..although originally this wasn't in the plan..it could take months so perhaps i will keep the order on until Mar 30th as that is the date for MadMax Tech Day! So if the gears dont arrive then we do the dremel thing...or as you suggested take the gears to a machinist...one last point...if ppl in their home shops do this dremel fix on their own do they reharden the surfaces they grinded... did you do this??ofc not...a machinist is not a metallurgist..so I dont think they are capable of reforging metal/steel..

[planedick]

Dremel fix

That dremel tool will not generate enough friction to cause any change to the hardness of the gear or dogs. The only thing to really pay attention to is the eveness of the grinding. You gotta keep the dogs even and the holes the same. I used a dial caliper to measure the parts to keep them even. I also got a set of diamond cutting tools from Harbor Frieght which made it easy to cut that hard steel. The cost of the cutters was only about $20 as I recall.

[jetmechmarty]

new gears are available

I was able to buy new gears. I just called my source and he has them in hand. He did not yet have my bill totalled. Two of the gears had to come from Japan.

[DiverRay]

Here is a site for a shop in the LA area that will undercut the gears. Not cheap, but they do it for racing and high performance bikes. http://www.aperaceparts.com/transmissions.html
just a thought. They DO say the gears CANNOT be "badly worn", so you would need a good set to start with.

[red bandit]

I did the Dremel fix on a set of gears that were very baddly worn. Couldn't hardly get the bike moving, 1st or 2nd gear. Like planedick said, remove the same amount from all dogs and slots/gear. I had to remove about 1/8 from all to get in to "good" square edges. Still plenty of "meat" to handle the power of the 11. I'm sure there are several guys on this site that would do the dremel work for you at a very reasonable price. Myself included. ALOT cheaper than new gears. Just a thought.

[madmax-im]

Originally posted by red bandit
I did the Dremel fix on a set of gears that were very baddly worn. Couldn't hardly get the bike moving, 1st or 2nd gear. Like planedick said, remove the same amount from all dogs and slots/gear. I had to remove about 1/8 from all to get in to "good" square edges. Still plenty of "meat" to handle the power of the 11. I'm sure there are several guys on this site that would do the dremel work for you at a very reasonable price. Myself included. ALOT cheaper than new gears. Just a thought.

Well ......being that I am the turnkey type I would opt for this...I will consult with randy cuz he and I were planning to do the gear swap....but I haven't given him the latest...

[madmax-im]

interesting

Originally posted by DiverRay
Here is a site for a shop in the LA area that will undercut the gears. Not cheap, but they do it for racing and high performance bikes. http://www.aperaceparts.com/transmissions.html
just a thought. They DO say the gears CANNOT be "badly worn", so you would need a good set to start with.

Doesn't that preclude us from looking for a fix to the endemic tranny problem?Whats the point of backcutting gears that aren't worn?I mean for our purposes on the street we are not doing it for racing.

[DiverRay]

If you start out with a used trans that has "good" gears, it's not a problem. It's only when you do as I did, and ride until you need to start off in THIRD that you have a problem.

[Guy_b_g]

Those gears are surface hardened, so any cutting away of material with a dremel tool will remove the hardened part of the steel. That said, enough people have done this fix to know if any problems are caused by the removal of the hardened material, and I haven't heard of anything but good news in this regard.

If you remove a small amount more or less from one dog to the next, more load will be put on the dogs that had less metal removed, they will wear in until things equal out on their own, so as long as you don't get crazy with the dremel, you'll be fine.

[madmax-im]

Ah Ha

Thanks For clarifying that Ray.For my gears to be backcut by them would be $300 not including shipping if they do indeed do business that way...will have to check them out more thoroughly.Thanks for the input! My gears are not that bad ..I'd say in the early stgs as I can still use first gear and i dont hold my have to (nor would I)hold the gear shifter with my foot.The tranny never come out of the gear only slipping in the gear.But if I acclerate moderately and short shift 1st gear then its ok from there...so it sounds like my gears could be done by them.

[AlanB]

Hi Guys,

These gears don't respond to grinding like they are "surface hardened"...... the material seems to be the same all through........ Any comments from those who have done repairs?

I would expect "surface hardened" gear dogs which had the working face removed would wear oddly; the edge of the newly ground face would wear very differently to the rest of the face if only the original surface was hardened....... again; any comments from those who have done repairs and later inspected their work after covering some mileage??

AlanB

[Guy_b_g]

I'm no expert...more than possible I'm wrong. I got my info from Bob Jones..author of XS11 Heaven. He was aware of the dremel fix but questioned it's longevity due to grinding past the surface hardening of the gears in his book. He was one of the first to do the washer fix. But I've not heard of anyone having difficulty with the gears after the dremel fix, so surface hardening or not, it doesn't seem to be an issue here.

The following is a quote from this site:

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Drive/Gears.html

"Spur Gear Design
The spur gear is is simplest type of gear manufactured and is generally used for transmission of rotary motion between parallel shafts. The spur gear is the first choice option for gears except when high speeds, loads, and ratios direct towards other options. Other gear types may also be preferred to provide more silent low-vibration operation. A single spur gear is generally selected to have a ratio range of between 1:1 and 1:6 with a pitch line velocity up to 25 m/s. The spur gear has an operating efficiency of 98-99%. The pinion is made from a harder material than the wheel. A gear pair should be selected to have the highest number of teeth consistent with a suitable safety margin in strength and wear. The minimum number of teeth on a gear with a normal pressure angle of 20 desgrees is 18.

The preferred number of teeth are as follows

12 13 14 15 16 18 20 22 24 25 28 30 32 34 38 40 45 50 54 60
64 70 72 75 80 84 90 96 100 120 140 150 180 200 220 250
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Materials used for gears:
Mild steel is a poor material for gears as as it has poor resistance to surface loading. The carbon content for unhardened gears is generally 0.4%(min) with 0.55%(min) carbon for the pinions. Dissimilar materials should be used for the meshing gears - this particularly applies to alloy steels. Alloy steels have superior fatigue properties compared to carbon steels for comparable strengths. For extremely high gear loading case hardened steels are used the surface hardening method employed should be such to provide sufficient case depth for the final grinding process used."

There are links on the site to several other interesting sites on gear design.

As to grinding..I have to regrind punch dies and other hardened material at work sometimes..poses no problem and I notice little if any difference in the grinding compared to non-hardened materials.

The dogs don't get the type of side-wiping wear on them that the teeth do (since they are on a common shaft)...and when undercut, they are pulling together rather than apart so I wouldn't expect that they would have the same kind of wear characteristics as the gears themselves (which are always trying to drive each other apart).

Just my thoughts...again I'm no expert.

[planedick]

Gears

These gears are hardened all the way through and there is no way that a dremel can generate enough heat to soften them. The amount taken off is so nimor that wear or weakness is not an issue. I have done bothe 1st and 2nd gear in two XS's and riden thousands of miles without any problems and I do ride 'em hard. It is only necessary to remove about .040" from the dogs close to the gear and nothing at the end of the dog and even less from the hole in the mating gear. If you want to send them to me I will do the grinding for you for $50 + shipping.... Just PM me for addy and details..