Spark problem..

[planedick]

Helping a frind getting a new bike running, problem is there is only spark during that time after releasing the starter button and the engine stops turning over. He is going to take apart the run - stop switch and look it over. Spent all day playing musical parts with a running bike and that's all we could ascertain. Anyone know the answer?

[John]

What kind of bike is it Dick? An xs11? Sounds like the ignition module may not be firing the coils in the crank mode, or it is not getting any voltage from the starter solenoid to the coils during the crank mode.

[mro]

Check battery voltage?
gotta have over 10 volts when cranking or TCI no go

Have you tried starting with jumper cables?


mro

[planedick]

Lots of juice....

Tried with hot battery, with heavy duty charger attached. Spins real good. Took a spark wire off and laid a plug on the case and watched for a spark. Only spark was that time after the start button was released and the motor came to a stop. Probably would start with a kick starter, but this model has a plug where the shaft would be. I'm thinking probably the ballast resistor or the run-stop-run switch. He's gonna change those things out and see if that works. Nice having a running machine next to it so we can play "musical parts". LOL

[John]

I don't think it would be the resistor because it only comes on line in the run mode. IIRC the coils get there power from the red/white wire on the solenoid that gets energized in the crank mode, and then runs through the kill switch on the right handlebar, then on to the coils. Try testing the red/white wire with a test light or VOM, or bypassing the kill switch.

[mro]

Should not crank if kill switch bad.
Just ate my words about that on another thred.

Seems something basic is being missed here,
but just can't think of what it is



mro
CRS sucks

[thewiz]

this is the bike that ....

looks so good; that sounds so nice; (when it happens to run); that has some cool mods; that won't start up; most of the time; that rarely has spark; 'cept when you release; the starter button; that sent Dick home; scratchin' his head ...... that stumped the gurus. (so far)

John ... It's a G with about 108K and not even a SCRATCH, meticuluously dealer serviced and garaged, a complete log of ALL services and expenditures, four manuals and original owners man, sales brochure, two extra exhausts, and the original carbs.

Mods are Supertrap, MIk 33 smooth bores and push pull throttle, stainless brake and oil delivery lines, fork brace, Forget about that gay gold stripe on the fairing .... you could pull the seat and tank and eat off the frame ....... but alas and alack .... it won't run.



Not bad for $200, right? I've certainly bought some turkeys before, but FINALLY ... this very, very nice one ended up in my lap. Yeah!!

We did make this thing run for a few seconds immediately after I cleaned and greased the three prong plug from the starter button and stop-run switch to the harness ... so we put it back together thinkin' we had it .... and then: ... nothin' after that ... ?? geez ....

Parts we have switched from other running bikes include, TCI, coils, starter relay. The parts removed from the G worked in the donor bike and the donor bike parts did NOT affect the G. ???

I have yet to switch out batteries, check pick up coil resistance or remove the wires from the TCI plug and re plug in separately ... there are a few more connectors here and there that I could lube up .... but I can't help but think the solenoid, starter button, kill switch loop is failing somehow, and here's a catch ... sometimes it doesn't even crank ...... today, I will try cranking and wiggling, I guess ... all ideas from you all will be investigated .... appreciate the brain power MUCHO.

[mro]

shooting in the Dark

pick-up coil wires???
Have they been checked?
Does it still have the "tip over" switch?

No crank, hmm....
stop swtch right control
starter button
connector between above selinoid etc..
starter selinoid
ground wire on starter
________
Since you've tried several things...
would use a Multi-meter to just double check voltage.
Like to selinoid when starter button pushed..
or check continuity that starter button and the engine off switch are working properly, eliminating know "goods" and see whats left.


mro

[randy]

Bad solenoid AND the green ballast bypass from the solenoid is either disconnected or poorly connected.

[thewiz]

Ok .... spent the better part of the day workin' on this thing.

First thing this AM, I cranked it once noticed the red/white power wire 1 into 2 connector undone. Plugged it back in and cranked while jiggling the R handlebar 3 wire harness. Fired right up and I let it run for a minute while fiddling with the choke lever ... until finally I choked or unchoked it out. Couple of start attempts ... nothing, ... I jiggle the harness at the coil connections ... it fires up. Dies quick and never restarts all day ... most often, it only sparks on the final 'lick' of the motor immediately after I release the starter button.

I did the following:
tested the pick up coils resistance ... OK within spec
Checked cranking voltage ... over 10V but barely

[thewiz]

accidental reply launch

Goofed .... fat fingered it somehow and launched the reply accidentally .... should I even be working on an motorcycle at all?

I also did the following:

Cleaned the green bypass wire connector on the solenoid
Changed the solenoid
Changed the battery
Checked continuity of TCI to coil wires
Checked and cleaned multiple connectors in lotsa places
Blew a 10a fuse trying to jump the solenoid to the starter

Have not removed wires from TCI plugs and connected them individually.

Have not completely eliminated the OFF/RUN switch.

Due to the double cable setup, a non stock R control was used ... one that has places for both thr. cables to enter the housing. I've been reluctant to start removing these throttle cables so far to get a better look at the button cuz I'm unsure of how to adjust 'em back .... Three wires on the switch connector though ... two correct colors but the starter button wire changes colors because of a splice a few inches down that joins the new switch control to the existing harness. Spliced button wire was twisted and black taped but looks fine. In addition, there is a short bk ground wire for the starter button. Was possibly meant to be pinched in between the control halves when assembled but it was floppin loose down under the bar where it is hard to see. Was maybe the intermittent crank issue I experienced .... it just don't crank unless that bk wire is grounded

Yet to check ... starter ground wire. Can I turn the key on and connect the two big terminals together on the solenoid with a suitable jumper and dffectively eliminate the starter button and OFF RUN switch safely ... without risking damage to the bike?

[John]

Re: accidental reply launch

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thewiz
[B]and black taped but looks fine. In addition, there is a short bk ground wire for the starter button. Was possibly meant to be pinched in between the control halves when assembled but it was floppin loose down under the bar where it is hard to see. Was maybe the intermittent crank issue I experienced .... it just don't crank unless that bk wire is grounded


You have found your problem! That wire is where the handlebar switch makes ground. It has been claimed here that the handlebars actually make the ground for the handlebar switches, (horn and start button) but actually that loose black wire should be attached to the switch housing with a small screw. The wire is what actually makes the ground for the switch. I have some painted bars on my bike (5 coats) and my risers are also painted and I have no issues with my starter or horn buttons not working.

[thewiz]

Thanks, John .... I wonder ??? I'll have to wait until daylight to try to re-attach that wire .... BUT .... I did hold the loose bk wire against the switch and handlebar to ground it so the starter would crank, but it still did not spark until I released the starter button. I've learned that the bk wire has to be grounded in order to crank the motor with the button ... BUT .... would just re-attaching this wire back onto the switch with a screw (and I do think I see a place for it) affect that no spark issue too ....?

[planedick]

Still up

Darn, I'm still loosing sleep over this thing. It is rare for an electrical problem to stump me, especially this long. It is a very humbling experience for me.

[thewiz]

still wrenchin'

Maybe it was the sun, Dick .... or somethin'? Like yourself, I have spent lots of time fixing electrical stuff. When I worked at MBZ, I used to get most of the underdash work.

This XS ignition system seems very simple .... ignition in general is pretty simple .... don't know why none of us has gotten it yet. Gonna' re attach the loose wire in the R control housing and if that doesn't fix it, I'll start from the beginning, clean and grease the rest of the connectors in the entire bike, inspect the harness very closely, recheck voltages and resistances, and see if we all may have overlooked something along the way, I guess.

Got it started twice yesterday and it ran fine .... What does that tell you?? ..... so I'm lookin' beyond this spark problem cuz it will pass soon ... today .... NEXT .... I sure as hell hope these carbs and exhaust are a good match They look awesome !!