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**Shuriken** · 09-30-2003, 10:30 PM

Yes, HP per $$.... That's why I want to see someone's dyno result after installing the big bore kit in the XS11. I'd be willing to chip in some $$ to pay someone to do it who had a dyno in their area.

I'm at the point where I want a better / more powerful / non-smoking bike. I have to decide how much money it costs to get certain gains. If a big bore is not that much more powerful than stock, I have to decide if the $1k is worth it. I'd be in to the bike about $2k at that point.

I could get into a used rocket for in the $2k-2500 range easily. But the tradeoff for power is comfort. A V-Max is out of the question because they hold their value too well. A V-65 is too hard to find and is never less than around $2k and seems to have similar dyno results.

Maybe to keep the features I want - comfort and power - I should rebuild the XS, but only if I can see what the big bore kit and a pipe do for the power.

Ben

**Shuriken** · 09-30-2003, 11:16 PM

(Mike - you may want to post Jeremy's XS11 dyno result in here also.)

....

What I think is interesting is to pick 3 points in the charts, such as 3000 rpm, 5500 rpm, and 8500 and compare data:

Estimates from graphs:

FZ1 - typical
3000 = 28hp, 48lb
5500 = 60hp, 60lb
8500 = 110hp, 68lb
Weight = 458lb

1998 Bandit 1200 - stock
3000 = 38hp, 55lb (that much torque?? graph is hard to tell)
5500 = 67hp, 67lb
8500 = 93hp, 60lb
Weight = 485

V-Max - typical, with simple mods
3000 = 40hp, 65lb (guessing)
5500 = 72hp, 72lb
8500 = 120hp, 70lb
Weight = 582

V-65 - 1983 dyno
3000 = 30hp, 53lb
5500 = 64hp, 61lb
8500 = 104hp, 65lb
Weight = 589lb

XS11 - Jeremy's best output
3000 = 31hp, 55lb
5500 = 61hp, 61lb
7500 = 88hp, 60lb (our old gal's are rpm limited!)
Weight = 573

Anybody want to figure out variance and standard deviation for each bike? It appears to me - everything is just estimating from the graphs - that the V-Max has a tremendous torque and horsepower band through the entire RPM range. Other than that, most of the bikes seem pretty similar. Wet weight and rider weight should make quite a difference. And it looks like the Bandit does indeed have a really nice powerband - and less weight than the cruisers. I'll bet it would fly.

??

Ben

**Mike Hart** · 10-02-2003, 07:56 AM

Notice that the VMax nr's are for a "typical" max - a typical Bandit has a slipon and main jets ~50% larger than stock. There is hardly anyone on the Bandit list running stock.

From this printout, you can see the typical Bandit has more torque than any of the other bikes shown (7 lbs more than the second place VMax), and is just a few hp short on peak hp.

I've seen good Bandit 1200's going for like $3000, and I think it is actually more comfortable than my XJ. The good ol' XJ will haul major amounts of luggage and camping gear more easily than the Bandit though

As far as bang for the buck goes, Gary's Bandit was 'typified' for some ridiculous low amount of $, maybe he'll tell us how much $.

Here's the equivalent FZ1 chart, you can see that Yamaha has got more out of the stocker, that the same $ spent on a Bandit gets you more gains:

If you like to spend your time above 8500rpm, the Fizzer is for you!

Anyway, impressive as the Max can be, it carries 4.85lbs for every hp, the Bandit 4.16; or in hp/wt ratio, VMax=.206, Bandit=.240, and actually the typical Bandit has lost weight to the tune of about 35 lbs by ditching the stock elbow tube and can, which gives 3.85lbs/hp - .259 hp/wt ratio. That is to say, the Bandit has ~25% more hp per pound!

Another good one to compare is the Kaw ZRX1200, which has 111.2hp and a whopping 82.2ftlbs bone stock. (130/85 with full exhaust/jet mods) I think it weighs ~500lbs.

**Shuriken** · 10-02-2003, 12:03 PM

This is such an interesting discussion because as we XS11 riders know, there are things we've discovered while riding.

We value:
1. a comfortable riding position
2. power
3. power
3. power
3. power
4. handling, etc

The trade off of course for getting more power in a newer bike is neck and wrist pain, among other things.

So if I get to a point where I give up the XS, I will need a bike to replace it. I will want a bike that will approximate what I would give up in the XS.

I don't see any tupperware torpedoes with comfortable riding positions and, when inquiring among their riders, seem to get the same response: they are fun for 45 minutes at a time. Thus, the bikes that satisfy my power demands and have a comfortable riding position (relatively!) would be the V-Max and the V-65. There are other bikes out there, but we are trying to replace XSive power with XSive power!

To me there are really only two variables. I want a bike that has enough power to rip your head off and also has a good enough riding position to allow for 2 hour rides.

The XS fits both categories if it's to factory or better specs. My total investment into the XS would be $2k if I brought it inline with these specs.

On the other hand, I could go out and buy a decent V-65 and get a much nastier top end with the same kind of low-end powerband as the XS and a decent (a little more cramped) riding position. I could get into a V-65 for probably $2.5k.

Or there is the V-Max, which is the basis of most motorcyclists' wet dreams but is so unaffordable it may as well be a Hardley. The max easily satisfies the power requirement with ample torque and a nasty top end, and has a decent riding position. I'd say no less than $4k for one of these.

It's easy to see that the final power-to-weight ratios are much better on the newer bikes. Too bad we couldn't take find ways to just shave 50lbs from the XS. I suppose if we had a plastic seat pan, no sissy bar, and 4-1 exhaust, we might save a fair amount. We should figure power to weight ratio of a typical XS and then see how it changes if we shed 15-50 lbs.

The FZ1 is a pricey little demon and stock, has no problem producing power. It has high power output and a fair riding position. As mentioned, the downside is that the real power is so high up in the band. Since I rarely ride at 120mph, this bike is really not practical, especially when considering passengers. I'd also say $4k plus for a beater FZ1.

And now for the Bandit. A 600 is too small for me. A 750 is too small for me. So it would have to be a 900 or bigger, which would satisfy the power requirement. I do all of my figuring in a "typical" fashion, which means "stock" configuration where possible. Therefore, I figured the Bandit performance as stock, which does not impress me. If one can get into a Bandit 1200 with the HP mods already in place for $3k, we are getting into the bargain range for what I'm looking for - especially if the riding position is as decent as it sounds. The reason I figure "stock" configuration is because I'm not the kind of person who wants to have to pay a grand for a pipe and jet kit. If the bike comes that way already, the total value is even better.

Now on the other hand, if doing a big bore kit, 4-1, and top-end tweak on an XS11 will put RWHP easily over 100, and the XS then wants to wheelie, burnout, etc, etc, then the XS becomes the bike to invest in because I already have it (opportunity time/cost), can work on it (air cooled), and don't care so much for handling right now.

What I'm really interested to know is how that Bandit compares to the XS in just engine output. I don't care about handling, we all know which handles better. I want to know how that Bandit lugs and if the torque feels all over the band like with the XS. How are wheelies, 0-60, 1/4 mile times, etc. How fun is the bandit below 8500?

Ben

**sixtysix** · 10-02-2003, 01:01 PM

Ben,

I gave you my answers to some of your questions, I love all 3 of my bikes, but the Bandit is the most fun by far. All of my comments are made with the best intentions and with a smile

, so don't get mad. I think the Bandit is a modern day XS.

Originally posted by ae7f

We value:
1. a comfortable riding position
2. power
3. power
3. power
3. power
4. handling, etc

>Ok let's start right here, I value power but power is nothing without control. My list is:

1. Comfortable riding position
2. Handling, braking, etc.
3. Power
4. Looks

Originally posted by ae7f
The trade off of course for getting more power in a newer bike is neck and wrist pain, among other things.

>>Sorry you are wrong. My Bandit is my most comfortable bike, followed by the Triumph Trophy 1200, and finally the XS11. The XS11 is comfortable enough to ride all day.....it's just a degree of comfort thing.

Originally posted by ae7f
So if I get to a point where I give up the XS, I will need a bike to replace it. I will want a bike that will approximate what I would give up in the XS.

I don't see any tupperware torpedoes with comfortable riding positions and, when inquiring among their riders, seem to get the same response: they are fun for 45 minutes at a time. Thus, the bikes that satisfy my power demands and have a comfortable riding position (relatively!) would be the V-Max and the V-65. There are other bikes out there, but we are trying to replace XSive power with XSive power!

To me there are really only two variables. I want a bike that has enough power to rip your head off and also has a good enough riding position to allow for 2 hour rides.

>OK Ben, now you are describing the Bandit exactly, except my Bandit is comfortable for 12 or 15 hour rides and I have done those.

Originally posted by ae7f
The XS fits both categories if it's to factory or better specs. My total investment into the XS would be $2k if I brought it inline with these specs.

>A good used 97-99 Bandit on Ebay is going for $2500-$3000 right now, take a look I see them everyday at this price.

Originally posted by ae7f
On the other hand, I could go out and buy a decent V-65 and get a much nastier top end with the same kind of low-end powerband as the XS and a decent (a little more cramped) riding position. I could get into a V-65 for probably $2.5k.

>Why?? Please Ben don't buy a Honda....things are not that bad are they?

Originally posted by ae7f
Or there is the V-Max, which is the basis of most motorcyclists' wet dreams but is so unaffordable it may as well be a Hardley. The max easily satisfies the power requirement with ample torque and a nasty top end, and has a decent riding position. I'd say no less than $4k for one of these.

>>Ok I have lusted after a V-Max before, but not anymore, I value handling over straightline performance and Mr. Max does not.

Originally posted by ae7f
It's easy to see that the final power-to-weight ratios are much better on the newer bikes. Too bad we couldn't take find ways to just shave 50lbs from the XS. I suppose if we had a plastic seat pan, no sissy bar, and 4-1 exhaust, we might save a fair amount. We should figure power to weight ratio of a typical XS and then see how it changes if we shed 15-50 lbs.

The FZ1 is a pricey little demon and stock, has no problem producing power. It has high power output and a fair riding position. As mentioned, the downside is that the real power is so high up in the band. Since I rarely ride at 120mph, this bike is really not practical, especially when considering passengers. I'd also say $4k plus for a beater FZ1.

>>I would say more than that...don't see too many for sale. There are no beater FZ1's yet.

Originally posted by ae7f
And now for the Bandit. A 600 is too small for me. A 750 is too small for me. So it would have to be a 900 or bigger, which would satisfy the power requirement. I do all of my figuring in a "typical" fashion, which means "stock" configuration where possible. Therefore, I figured the Bandit performance as stock, which does not impress me. If one can get into a Bandit 1200 with the HP mods already in place for $3k, we are getting into the bargain range for what I'm looking for - especially if the riding position is as decent as it sounds. The reason I figure "stock" configuration is because I'm not the kind of person who wants to have to pay a grand for a pipe and jet kit. If the bike comes that way already, the total value is even better.

>>Now you are getting warm, but even a stock Bandit is better in all respects than a stock XS. One with mods is even more so. Even if HP was the same, Bandit weighs less. On my Bandit I have replaced the exhaust with one from an RF900 ($50), New free flowing air filter ($20), 2" hole mod (free), jets ($20). This nets about 10HP overstock. 10HP for under $100....let's see you do that with an XS!

Originally posted by ae7f
Now on the other hand, if doing a big bore kit, 4-1, and top-end tweak on an XS11 will put RWHP easily over 100, and the XS then wants to wheelie, burnout, etc, etc, then the XS becomes the bike to invest in because I already have it (opportunity time/cost), can work on it (air cooled), and don't care so much for handling right now.

>>Same mods on a Bandit get you up in the 130-140 HP range, it is actually just as easy to work on as the XS, other than having to pull the tank to get at plugs. Valve adjustments are easier. I don't have any problems servicing the bandit. Spin-on oil filter and it is air cooled too!

Originally posted by ae7f
What I'm really interested to know is how that Bandit compares to the XS in just engine output. I don't care about handling, we all know which handles better. I want to know how that Bandit lugs and if the torque feels all over the band like with the XS. How are wheelies, 0-60, 1/4 mile times, etc. How fun is the bandit below 8500?

Ben

>> My Bandit rarely gets over 8500rpm.....not sure why you ever need to go that high, Unless you are dragracing? ....Bandit has more usable power everwhere than an XS. It pulls hard from 2k right to redline. If you blip the throttle in first gear the front wheel is in the air. Just taking off briskly the front wheel comes up about 7000 rpm even if you don't want it to. The XS does like to pull at all below 3K.

**Ken Talbot** · 10-02-2003, 01:41 PM

Originally posted by ae7f
Too bad we couldn't find ways to just shave 50lbs from the XS.

I've seen a few XSives that you could easliy shave 50 pounds from with just a little work...

**Mike Hart** · 10-02-2003, 02:22 PM

opinions

I've ridden all the bikes under discussion (except the ZRX1200).

I have to agree with Gary - handling (including braking) comes before power and looks.

The Max and V65 handle kinda like the XS. I hate the V65, don't like the sound, don't like the high front end / tall bars, don't like the footpegs, etc. VMax is too small for me (well most any bike is too small for me, but the VMax really is too small). The FZ1, ZRX, and Bandit are all faster, more comfortable, and handle way better. I prefer the XS to the Vmax and V65.

The GSXR cams in the Bandit will get you 130+hp, they don't cost a lot, but hey, come the day the Bandit doesn't have enough grunt for me, that add'l 15hp is available for me. $3K for a used Bandit, $3k more for a Mr Turbo kit, try like 250hp!!!!! eek

The V65 or Max would be a good choice if you spend most your time on the freeway.

Full-on sport bikes are more comfortable than you seem to think, Ben. Maybe not for 12 hrs at a clip, but after riding an R1 for an hour, I was amazed at the ergonomics (not to mention the power and handling and braking). I was in no discomfort whatever, no weight on hands/wrists, the seat and pegs are situated so as to not put any strain on your back. It's a bitch in stop'n'go traffic though, the pegs are so high

Then there's Bill Kingson's 87 GSXR 1100 - cheap to buy, and he took off the clipons and put standard-type bars on it. I'll let Bill tell you how much better it pulls/handles/brakes than his XS.

If you must think of Honda, think CBR1000F - like 1990 or so - affordable, fast, sleek, smooth, pretty comfy. The 'older' sport bikes weren't as radical as todays, and they weigh in the same neighborhood as the Bandit and FZ1.

When Gary was out here, we spent day after day on the Bandits, most days were 10-12 hrs in the saddle, and nobody heard either of us complaining about lack of comfort!! Well, we both have the Corbin Gunfighter seat, and that has a lot to do with it. BTW, the Yamaha FJR1300 has a riding position remarkably close to that of the Bandit.

**Bill** · 10-03-2003, 08:46 AM

Re: opinions

Mike Hart wrote:

Full-on sport bikes are more comfortable than you seem to think, Ben. Maybe not for 12 hrs at a clip... Then there's Bill Kingson's 87 GSXR 1100 - cheap to buy, and he took off the clipons and put standard-type bars on it. I'll let Bill tell you how much better it pulls/handles/brakes than his XS.

I gave about $1700 (a snowmobile and $600) for the GSX-R. It pulls/handles/brakes WAY better than my XS and it's rock solid at any speed I've gone so far. The all-aluminum frame makes it very light (about 50 lbs less than the Bandit) and the standard bars make it more comfortable. But not as comfortable as the XS.

I like my XS for cruising. Kept in good tune it'll go as fast as I want and go around turns adequately. But "it is... what it is". For twisties and adrenaline-pumping accelleration I take the other bike. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any dyno tests to provide useful comparative information on HP and torque.

One MAJOR consideration on sport bikes is insurance cost. They fall into a high risk category and insurance usually costs a lot more. Not too bad if you're over 40 and live in a rural area, though...

XSively,

**Shuriken** · 10-03-2003, 10:41 AM

This is good stuff guys. A great discussion.

Okay, so maybe I'm a bit biased against comfort factors among bullet bikes. I rode a Honda VF750 interceptor years ago about the same time I had my XS650. I didn't find it overly uncomfortable, but I was a new rider then.

What I go by is what I hear from all of my friends who ride more expensive bikes. My friend has a CBR 929. He is about 6' (I'm 6'1") and weighs substantially more than me - he's probably 220, I'm 160! He can't ride for an hour without difficulty. Is it just his bike? I ask the other riders that will talk to me (many of the Squids try to act superior because they ride a new, expensive bike) about riding and they tell me about their bikes. I seem to see a gap between comfort I find on the XS and comfort I can expect on sport bikes.

The only way I'll no for sure is to start getting test rides I suppose. Nobody will let you take an FZ1 off the showroom though. Not in my area.

However, I have renewed interest in the Bandit, thank you. I need to ride one. Hard to find exactly what you want in my neck of the woods.

Mike, your experience in riding all of the bikes mentioned except the Kaw 1200 is very helpful. Especially the comment you made that the new sport bikes are faster than the Max, XS, and V-65.

Sixtysix, that's interesting you find your bandit most comfortable. I'm listening.... And Honda isn't all that bad. I have a 1971 CL350, a 1974 XL350, and a 1982 XL500 - all Hondas. They all still run reliably without any problems. Until I get experience otherwise, Honda and Yamaha are the bikes I look at first. My Honda Civic finally lost the tranny after 250,000 miles. Until then that car never failed me. Honda knows engines in my opinion. ;-)

Ken, maybe they don't need to shave 50 lbs but just need more horsepower or torque! ;-)

Keep the comments coming. I'm off to look at bandits right now.

Ben

**Pat Kelly** · 10-03-2003, 11:27 AM

I used to ride my Honda CB400TII (Hawk) with solo seat and clip-ons from Phoenix AZ to Modesto CA (about 900 miles) in one shot (gas and food breaks). I did this about 10 times. I was in my early 20's then too (mid 40's now). I was quite comfortable with my sleeping bag on the tank and I layed on my stomach the whole time. I'd prop my chin on my left hand, elbow on tank, to hold my head up. My weight was on the meaty inner part of my thighs instead of my butt and tailbone.

I now have arthritis in my neck and can't handle having my neck at extreme angle anymore. The touring seat on the XS is fairly comfortable and suited me fine on my 3,000 mile trek to B.I. Deuce. The weight of the bike (700 lb), gear 100 lb), and me (220), smoothed the bumps just fine.

I too look at the crotch rockets and dream. Then I get realistic and appreciate my XS all the more for it's versatility. On the XS triples site someone posted his experience swapping bikes with a friends Hyabusa. He talked of the seemingly unlimited power, razor sharp handling, and powerful brakes. When he got back on his XS750 he felt he was "back home". His XS "talked" to him whereas the Busa was "sterile" and "impartial". This could be because it wasn't his bike and the bike was just 'tolerating' a guest. One thing missing from his post was what the Busa rider thought of the XS.

**Jerry** · 10-03-2003, 01:27 PM

Comfort is made up of many things. Here are a few factors that a rider can change to fit a bike more to his/her comfort level.

Better grips. I'm getting ready to change mine, and will probably go with the Kyraken Iso-grips with the little wrist wrest. Have talked to several long-haul guys who think these are the best out there. Cost is $60.00 and up.

Better footpegs. I've switched to floorboards which I find more comfortable than pegs, but even most aftermarket iso-pegs are better than the stock units. Cost of my boards (ebay and custom mounts) was around $35.00.

Different handlebars and/or risers. Many XS owners have changed bars; this is a frequent topic, so search the archives for past posts. I run my XJ bars one spline wider and one spline higher than the stock setting, and it makes a big difference in comfort. Price $25.00 and up.

Seat covers/different seat. From wooden beads and gel pads to sheepskins and full custom seats, a good place to park your backside makes a tremendous difference. Prices range from $10.00 to over $600.00.

Even small things, like new clutch and throttle cables, will change the 'feel' of the bike. Bigger items, like new fork springs and rear shocks, will also change the character of the bike.

So if you are not in the position of owning several bikes and you are looking to improve the comfort level of the XS, try changing a few of these items. A relatively small investment can make a big difference.

**fusionking** · 10-04-2003, 08:50 PM

Dumb Question

Is the Bandit shaft drive?

**Mike Hart** · 10-05-2003, 08:19 AM

No, the Bandit has a 530 chain. One advantage of a chain is that you can change your final drive ratio.

BTW, the windscreen on my XJ's fairing takes more maintenance time than the chain on my Bandit.

If there is a downside to chain drive, it's that you have to buy a new one every 10-15K miles.

**mitch** · 10-05-2003, 06:24 PM

Chain drive

Hey Mike , there is an eazy way to get more milage outta your chains but it isnt fun, Its called backing off the throttle

Glad i cant streach my shaft drive ..................MITCH

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