This one's for Ivan!

[Poprock]

Take it easy on Crazy Steve. Many artists were misunderstood and unappreciated. Not everyone likes the same stuff. Think about it guys: out of the world's billions and billions of people, 4 or 5 thousand of us ride 30-year-old XS11s. We like 'em, we don't care what the rest of the world thinks about that. Steve built his Harley the way he likes it. His craftsmanship is evident. He isn't trying to sell it to you, just to show you what he did.
Want to see something really nuts, look at the stuff people do to their pickup trucks, from slamming them down, cutting the floor out of the bed, making them a torture to ride and utterly useless as a truck. Others jack them up so high they need steps to get in, have to creep around corners to keep the wheels on the ground, and probably never take them off road and get all that hardware dirty. But it looks rugged!
I just don't understand this rage. It's a matter of taste after all.

[Bigfoot]

Well, normally I would just praise the guy for all of his hard work and not mention the obvious flaws. But... Steve started out his thread with the obvious intention of showing how much better he was than Ivan in a rather rude and mean spirited way. He exhibited this bike as the proof of his superiority. So, I gave an honest opinion of the bike. If he had just been trying to show us his work, without trying to put down someone else in the process, maybe he would have gotten an nicer response from me and others.

[barberad]

I believe it was Rodney King...

who said "Couldn't we all just get along?"

(As the LAPD were bouncing their clubs of his body)

[fredintoon]

Take it easy on Crazy Steve. Many artists were misunderstood and unappreciated. - - - Steve built his Harley the way he likes it. His craftsmanship is evident. He isn't trying to sell it to you, just to show you what he did. - - -
Want to see something really nuts, look at the stuff people do to their pickup trucks, - - - It's a matter of taste after all.

Hi Poprock,
it's not rage, more like nausea.
I must confess to being a motorcycle Vandal myself. I chopped up a what would now be a priceless antique 1937 Velocette.
But what I did was to put a swingarm and tele-forks on it to make it into a better ride.
And it was, rode that little machine all over until I swapped it for my first sidecar rig.
What I reckon is, if you do it to improve the way it runs, that's OK.
If you do it to make the bike have a certain look and the work makes it ride worse, that ain't.

[crazy steve]

Reply to all.....

Well, stirred the ol' hornet's nest again, although that really wasn't my intention.

First, thanks to Poprock, XJOK2PLAY, Elevener, and Oseaghdha for some kind words (and yeah, those are '59 Caddy lights; repops. Just couldn't resist 'em...).

Well, normally I would just praise the guy for all of his hard work and not mention the obvious flaws. But... Steve started out his thread with the obvious intention of showing how much better he was than Ivan in a rather rude and mean spirited way. He exhibited this bike as the proof of his superiority. So, I gave an honest opinion of the bike. If he had just been trying to show us his work, without trying to put down someone else in the process, maybe he would have gotten an nicer response from me and others.

Bigfoot:
I was rude and mean spirited? I suggest you re-read Ivans quote I included, or better yet, go back and read the thread that started this ('Two Things I Hate...'). Ivan got into full Harley-bashing voice and was talking trash, and every time I pointed out his errors, he changed the subject rather than back up his statements and got even more strident. He was painting all Harley owners with the same brush, and his technical knowledge of HD products appears to be nearly nonexistant. So if somebody says 'all cats are black' and I say 'wait a minute, I have a white one' and prove it, that makes me mean spirited? And as far the 'honest' bit, my mother always said 'if you can't say anything nice....'. But don't worry, I can take the heat if you must. But it seems a bit mean spirited..... LOL

Ivan: You did it again; evaded answering and changed the subject. I'm sorry you got in that accident, I wouldn't wish that on anyone (well, maybe my ex-wife) but your misfortune certainly wasn't my fault. I'll debate the merits of most anything, but be prepared to back up what you say or I'll call you on it.

Fred: This was never intended to be a practical daily rider. I'll be the first to admit this bike is an extreme case. I will point out one thing just for you; I didn't convert it to a hardtail; it still has a swingarm (LOL). And nope, I don't ride in the rain; I think I've gotten slightly wet maybe 3-4 times (and I mean 'slightly') in the last ten years. As far as the styling, it's pretty much a 'love it or hate it' deal. Even over on the Sportster list the looks got mixed reviews, but I can live with that. To tell the truth, one of the minor reasons for building this bike was to take it to Harley shows and piss off the guys who write big checks for their 'customs' (basically, the guys that piss off Ivan; don't think I'm much more fond of them). This will be a double insult for these guys; my total cost is less than most spend on chrome or paint, and it's a lowly (to them) Sportster besides. This thing is gonna stick out like a sore thumb...

Brand-bashing in general, HD in particular: You hear this all the time; 'yeah, those are a real POS, my buddy has one and it's junk'. Whether it's 'Wingers, BMW, XS11, or HD riders, every group has some members who just aren't happy unless they're tearing down somebody else's choice, as if that somehow justifies their own choice. But start asking some questions, and it usually becomes clear that few of the naysayers have ever rode said bike, and even fewer have actually owned one; it's all antedotal stuff with little basis in fact. For the record, my '93 Sportster has been the most reliable bike I've owned, with only normal maint and tire/battery replacement for the eight years I've owned it. I usually bought Yamaha products in the past, and while they were fine bikes too (I sometimes wish I hadn't sold my XS650), none were as trouble-free. I've been on a Sportster list for about seven years, and the number of 'I've got a problem, how do I fix it?' posts are nowhere near the volume I see here, so read into that what you will. Probably 90% are for modifications, products, or ride reports. Harley must be doing something right; they've got 28% of the market. Honda is their closest competitor at 25%, but that includes ALL street bikes they sell, so in reality HD has an even larger share of the big-bore market. Marketing only won't get you that...

As to the virtues and faults of our XS11s, let's face it; these aren't the 'one, perfect bike'. After all, Yamaha dropped these after only five years of production (the 650 was built for how many years; 12? 15? A looong time) so they were surely dissatisfied with some aspect of the bike. But it's good points outweigh the bad for me (and obviously for pretty much everyone here), so it's been with me now for 31 years. It's older than my kids, and been around longer than the wife, so it's a member of the family.

'78E original owner

[Elevener]

From the time I was 20 I rode a custom harley (that I built with weld on hardtail)for ten years, but it was a lifestyle then. Chopped, hardtail, minimalistic. Long and skinny was how I liked them.

But now adays I cant stand the new generation. Hell I cant even tell if its a harley or a honda as it goes by. Harleys quit being harley with the blockhead. Somehow harleys and jap bikes started merging and met in the middle somewhere, (computer designed v-twins).

Now most harley (and clone) riders ride on "bike nite" and weekends and have a garage door opener on their bikes. I hate fairings even on the xs1100. To each their own......to much brand hatin going on between two wheelers.

Who cares what someone else rides, its their ride.

And crazy steve, we always gave sportster riders a hard time.

[Ivan]

Never said it was your fault. My last posting before getting hit was saying, in a nutshell "LEAVE IT ALONE". I guess you didn't get that. So after all the BS I went through you throw this up in my face, and bring up more bad feelings. I just don't need that, not now.

If my knowledge of Harleys is non existent, ok then. Whatever. The only singular solitary only one thing you ever did say was any better about Harley than other scoots was the quality of the chrome plating. Your knowledge of Harley's superiority is nearly non existent.

Seems you accuse every one as being against you. Saying that this thread was not a "My bike is better than yours" is a bald faced LIE. Starting this thread in this manner was in bad taste. As far as I can see, people are against something as juvenile as that.

As far as not participating in brand bashing, your aggressive "Its got to be good since its a Harley" is basing not only one brand, but all other brands. If you are going to call someone a "brand basher" get out of the boat, lest you sink it.

My last post in the other thread ended up saying that you haven't made me like Harleys any more than I have before. The biggest thing I have against Harleys is the fanbois. Right about now, you have driven my opinion of Harley's and their narcissistic proponents to abysmal lows.

So now, take your Harley and your attitude and LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE.

[fredintoon]

Well, stirred the ol' hornet's nest again, although that really wasn't my intention.

Fred: This was never intended to be a practical daily rider. - - - To tell the truth, one of the minor reasons for building this bike was to take it to Harley shows and piss off the guys who write big checks for their 'customs' - - -
Brand-bashing in general, HD in particular: You hear this all the time; 'yeah, those are a real POS, my buddy has one and it's junk'. - - -
As to the virtues and faults of our XS11s, let's face it; these aren't the 'one, perfect bike'.

Hi Steve,
so, you built a low-budget 3-dimensional wall hanging to piss off those Harley guys you see sporting their OC lookalikes at bike shows?
OK, the bike's general aesthetics will do that and it's a worthy motivation too, good on you!
The brand-bashing is more like " (Brand X) must be a POS because my neighbor owns one and he's a total wanker. "
And no bike can be "the one, perfect bike". Not an XS11 on a twisty gravel trail through the woods or a 250cc dual-purpose trying to survive on the Interstate.

[crazy steve]

Hi Steve,
so, you built a low-budget 3-dimensional wall hanging to piss off those Harley guys you see sporting their OC lookalikes at bike shows?
OK, the bike's general aesthetics will do that and it's a worthy motivation too, good on you!
The brand-bashing is more like " (Brand X) must be a POS because my neighbor owns one and he's a total wanker. "
And no bike can be "the one, perfect bike". Not an XS11 on a twisty gravel trail through the woods or a 250cc dual-purpose trying to survive on the Interstate.

Like I said, that wasn't the main reason for the build, but certainly was a reason. Should be fun....

One point that's been missed (or ignored), is being a Sportster rider I'm just barely above the 'socially acceptable' line level for many BigTwin riders (and I'll even include some of the BT clone owners) too. I get this grudging pass only because it's a HD. The 'girl's bike' thing, y'know. So lumping me in with the arrogant BT guys is uncalled for IMO. But my hopped-up '93 will out-perform 95% of the rest of the HD line as well as many of the clones, so the proof's in the pudding.

Every bike has something that pleases it's owner enough that it was purchased, so that's it's 'virtues' to that owner. Contrary to what some people are erroneously reading into my comments, I'm not claiming that Harleys (or any other brand) are 'superior' in all ways to all others, simply that they have virtues that please their owners also and every bike has different strong points. I like both my XS and my Sporty; while they have some overlapping traits, they 'complement' each other nicely for me (hmmm; if I could roll all of each one's pluses into one bike, I might have that 'perfect bike'.... LOL). God knows I've owned some real POS's in the past, but they had some virtue at the time (usually 'cause I could afford them!) so to declare that 'brand x' is junk or the owner of said brand is a follower of the anti-christ simply because of that choice is pretty narrow-minded.

So if you're going to slam somebody else's choice, at least know what your talking about.

'78E original owner

[trbig]

For the record, my '93 Sportster has been the most reliable bike I've owned, with only normal maint and tire/battery replacement for the eight years I've owned it.

So how many miles are we talking? Most of the problems these bikes have are age related. Come back in about 20 years and 200k miles and tell us how dependable that Sporty is.

As to the virtues and faults of our XS11s, let's face it; these aren't the 'one, perfect bike'. After all, Yamaha dropped these after only five years of production (the 650 was built for how many years; 12? 15? A looong time) so they were surely dissatisfied with some aspect of the bike.

Maybe not perfect, but after 30 years, it's still the closest thing to it that I have seen. One of the biggest problems and aspects that Yamaha had with these bikes is that they didn't break down often enough. The sale of parts after a purchase is a big business.. and they didn't get that from these bikes. Plus.. they still did OK even though the government started charging a tarriff to save Hardley Worthitson.


Tod

[XJOK2PLAY]

On a different note...

Last weekend, while riding from Eureka Springs to Hot Springs, Arkansas I rode up alongside an older fellow, w/ a long, whispey grey beard riding a nice looking older Harley. I gave him a nod as I passed on by in the left lane of the divided 4 lane we were travelling. Didn't think much about it, seeing as it was the big Harley meet in Fayetteville that weekend and they were everywhere.

But what happened next... well let's just say, I thought it was pretty classy, and it helped my attitude somewhat about the Harley crowd... All of a sudden, he comes back up beside me, I look over, just in time to see him giving me the "thumbs up" with a nod and a big smile! Seems he liked my XJ!

Sometimes, I need to watch getting carried away w/ the stereotyping.
Made me feel great, and a little guilty, both at the same time.
Not everybody carries the same attitudes... even though we can sometimes misjudge them.

[trbig]

Bob,

It may have been your cute butt in those riding pants he was so smiley and thumbs up about. He had sunglasses on, or you would have seen the wink also...

There's a lot of "Those types" there in Eureka Springs, ya know..


Tod

[crazy steve]

So how many miles are we talking? Most of the problems these bikes have are age related. Come back in about 20 years and 200k miles and tell us how dependable that Sporty is.
Tod

I'm comparing apples to apples; at the time I owned/rode my last two Yammys, they were roughly the same age/mileage as my Sporty.

My XS650 was a '72(? First year for electric start/disc brake) and was a good bike, although the electric starter was a hit-or-miss item on it. Half the time I ended up kick-starting it. I owned this from '72 until I sold it to get the new 11 in '78. But it had to have the carbs removed, disassembled and cleaned every spring or it would run like crap sometime in the first week of new-season riding (usually resulting in limping home on one cylinder). I never found anything inside those carbs; they always looked spotless when I pulled them, but I still had to do this (and it wasn't crap in the petcocks or tank either; that was checked too). By the time I sold it, that was just a rite of spring. And the last year I owned it, it developed an appetite for taillight bulbs for some reason that neither I or the dealer ever did track down. This generated too many conversations with LEOs and was a factor in it's sale. It's major fault was it simply wasn't big enough to be a good touring/highway bike, and I was ready for more power. One thing I did really like was this was the last bike I owned that you could perform a full tune-up on (timing, valve adjust, etc) with the tool kit (ok, I added a set of feeler gauges and a point file to the kit).

The 11 was (and is) another good bike. Early on I had the 'broken wire in the pickup' problem that the dealer couldn't find in two tries (a indy tracked that down for me) and by '85 I had replaced two tachs (no wiring/plug issues, as that was checked; just flat-out equipment failures). Of course, you could still get 'em new in those days (but not cheaply! About $160 a pop if I remember right). The only other mechanical disappointment was it started to burn a small amount of oil at about 10K, but it appears to be weak valve guides/seals. Started puffing blue smoke on starting, but it goes away when warm. I just feel that 10k was rather low miles for this to crop up. The dealer claimed it was an easy fix, but the quoted cost wasn't easy on my budget, so I just monitored the oil level closely. I never have had any tranny problems. My only real complaints with the bike is the 'pogoing' effect when getting into/out of the throttle (the real biggie; I hate this when corner carving) and the heavy slow speed handling. These are two faults the Sporty doesn't have.

So does all this make these crummy bikes? No, of course not. If this had been about my Sportster, any number of people would quickly say 'See? What a POS'. But the Sporty has been dead-reliable, with the only time I ever had a glitch is when I removed the battery for cleaning/service and failed to get one terminal tight. It loosened, the battery went dead. I tightened the screw, bump-started it and rode home, no fuss.

As to high-mileage Harleys, all I can say is I personally know 4-5 riders that have 100K+ bikes that have received nothing more than routine service and maybe a gasket or three (yes, oil leaks are an issue) and are still going strong. A woman rider I know has a '04 Sporty that just passed 130K (yep, she rides the snot out of that bike) and 99% of the issues she's had haven't been with the bike but with all the 'stuff' she's installed. She's a 'big' girl, and if you saw all the camping gear, etc she straps to that bike, you'd be amazed that it's held up so well.

'78E original owner

[Trainzz]

My Two cents

After 27, now 28 posts on this subject, I have a question and a thought.

Question: Steve, do you go on your Harley sites and extol the virtues of your XS? Are you as confrontational there as you are here? Do you jump into unthinking pissing contest with that group?

My thought. This is an XS site. Look up and see, is it just me or does it say XS11.com, or harleyhardhead.com? If you can't respect the intent of this site, my thought is that you should carry your ass on outta here. Jumping ugly with a respected member of this forum is counter-productive to what we try and do here.

My personal feeling is that no matter how many xs's you have owned or for how long, you are no one I would care to ride with.

Sigh...........................

[DGXSER]

One and only thought....move this to the "hot topics" forum. Another fine example of my fond memories of elementary school.

Life lesson here, if someone starts a statement/thread with a slam, their sole intention is to draw attention, much like most of the stuf fin the "Hot Topics" forum. So, the easy way to difuse it, give it no attention. Then it dies, they learn that does not get them the attention they crave and they learn to use honey to gather the bees. Continue the process by slamming back and suddenly they got all that attention they craved. Pick either side of this argument and you will find what I believe are guilty parties.