new to the forum and new owner to boot

[45operator]

hi. i just recently bought a super cheap, payable when able, 2ndhand 650cc midnight special. it is in very good condition externally but after 3 years of storage it simply will not start using either the kick or the electric starter.

to make matters worse, the electric starter itself seems to be too weak to crank the engine. remove it from the engine and try it out, it's ok but when installed it won't even do one complete crank as if something were stopping it. as far as i know, the starter is model-correct and should work. it's been to a local mechanic but nobody's been able to bring her back to life again.

need mucho help.

thanks.

[mro]

650 on da 1100 site

Guys over at the twins site no help?
OK...for starters
Has spark?
Getting fuel?
Hows the compression?
Have you cleaned the grounds, both battery and starter, connector on selinoid?
Have you load tested the battery?
Is this a 650 4 or a twin ?
What carbs BS34 or 38's ?
Sitting three years...have you cleaned/adjusted the carbs, cleaned out the fuel tank?


mro

[45operator]

all this has been done. it's been to a local mechanic here in the philippines but even he can't track down the problem. i'll try and post pics of it when i get back there. i'm on a totally different island currently.

[prometheus578]

Need more info

(I'm sure you meant XS1100, not XS650)
Anyway... more info needed, or at least an explaination.
Now then... You need a new battery, plain and simple. But some clarification first:
You state that it doesn't start using the starter nor the kick starter... and the starter doesn't spin one complete crank.. as if something was stopping it. My question at this point.... will the kick starter rotate the engine all the way around, or is something jamming it from turning?
A weak battery will rotate the engine until the compression builds and the rotation stops. That's abattery issue. If you can't rotate the engine at all with the kick starter, then you have an internal engine issue. You need to tell us which you have.
Even if the starting system worked perfectly, sitting for three years the carbs probably need to be removed and cleaned... another reason for it not starting.
DO NOT take this machine to the mechanic you mentioned for him to clean the carbs. Anyone who can't figure out these simple problems needs to hang up his tools and seek another line of work.
No use checking for spark yet, either, as if the battery needs replacing, it may have enough strength to spin the engine a bit, but if it doesn't have about 10 volts left, it'll produce no spark.
Clarify the above questions and write back.

[mro]

I took a look at his profile and has MNS 1100
Is it the 1980 or 1981 ?

What Prom said...I just don't like to type as much


mro

[mro]

BTW

80 and 81's did not come with the kick starter parts installed.
If you do have a MNS 1100...they were added by a PO.


mro

[45operator]

you're right. it's the 650cc. the kick starter works, or at least used to. that's the way my uncle got it running before but now even that fails. tried a new, fully charged battery, cleaned the terminals and grounds and it's still the same. it'll get the li'l "enk" sound then stop. try again and all you'll get is the "enk" sound. will try taking the carbs apart with another mechanic.

[prometheus578]

Don't worry about the carbs till you get the "enk" figured out. Now then, as I asked... and you sort of explained... will the engine rotate completely, either with the kickstarter or the starter? My concern at this point is that something is not right internally. Timing off... piston coming up and hitting a valve, stopping the engine from turning.
Or can you take off whichever engine side cover is needed... and rotate the engine with a wrench on the crankshaft bolt.
Will this bike's engine freely spin or will it not?

[45operator]

i will try that when i get back there in about a week. thanks. you guys will be hearing from me a lot. i just hope i can get it running when i get back with all this info. good day to all (or evening if that's the case).

oh dearie me. i just noticed that the 650 and 1100 are totally different.

[prometheus578]

"As you're in the Phillipines..."

Give the MacArthur quote when you come back.

Yes, quite different machines, but a bike's a bike and an engine's an engine.
This thread may have been moved to the "Other Bike" section so look there if you don't see it here.

[mro]

Battery grounded to frame...
Engine has it's own ground to frame.
Starter grounds to engine.


mro

[AlanB]

Hi 45operator,

The twins start pretty well when well set up, but take a bit of effort to turn 'em over.

The electric starters were never really enough to start an engine which was not A1; Yamaha increased the size of the starter motor several times during the life of these bikes...... which is why the oil capacity of the newer bikes is less than the earlier ones.

All of the usual problems which stop bikes starting apply to these bikes, Fuel, plugs, earths, batteries, etc,..... but it also takes a pretty big kick to start 'em if they have not been run for a while....... I am 6'2, around 180lbs, and had about ten years with XStwins.......... and can usually start 'em first time. They are not as tempramental as the Brit twins, but they have their moments!

AlanB

[Shuriken]

I owned a 650 Special before I "upgraded" to the XS11. Very reliable bike and great gas mileage.

When I got mine it had a leaky head gasket that I had to change.

If it were my bike, I'd make sure the engine would turn over with no mechanical problems. You can remove the spark plugs and use the kick starter for this. If the engine won't turn over, you need to find out what's going on there. If it will turn over, I would move on to a compression check.

If compression is bad, work on that. If engine turns over and compression is good, I would move on to spark. If you remove a spark plug and ground it to the engine and crank the engine with the kick starter, you should see good spark. If you don't have spark, you need to check into that.

If you have good spark and compression, move on to fuel. Spray some starter fluid in the cylinders and kick it over a few times. If you get a pop, the bike should be able to run. If you don't get a pop, the timing may be off.

If you have any mechanical binding, compression seems bad, or the timing seems off, you could have a cam/crank alignment problem due to cam chain problems or something else.

The 650 engine is really a tough engine. I doubt you'd have broken kickstarter teeth in the tranny floating around and binding up, and I doubt you'd have bottom-end issues. So I think if anything, you have ignition/spark/timing issues or compression issues.

[xswilly]

pull your plugs and put some marvel mystery oil in
wait 1 week then come back and with the plugs out, and a rag covering each spark plug hole
turn the motor over with either the starter or the kick starter
oil shouls shoot out the plug holes, so be careful
that should loosen up the rings and possibly rust in the cylinders
also the starter should be able to turn the mototr over without the spark plugs in
if not like prom says internal problems

[fredintoon]

Another forum

Hi 45,
if you do have an XS650 rather than an XS1100 there's another site you can join:-
http://micapeak.com/mailman/listinfo/yam650
There as here you will find all manner of good advice and folks who's sense of humor may not be the same as your own.