gas mileage ponderings...

[Pat Kelly]

Yep, when your wages go up and you get increased benefits those things have to be paid for somehow.
The employer has to raise the cost of the product to pay the higher wage/benefit.

Again, greed. On the part of the employee (wanting higher wage) and employer (not really greed, just the bottom-line of doing business).

.

[John]

Just look at what is happening to the airline industry. I work for American Airlines, and we have been taking a beating on fuel prices. In the 2nd quater of the year alone, they have spent over $450 million more on fuel, than for the same period of time in '04. If the prices would have stayed the same, that woud be the first profit for the company since before Sept.11. A couple of years ago, the company's employees took a massive pay cut to keep the company out of bankruptcy. For me, it was a $7 an hour cut, right off the top. Not to mention the loss of sick time, holiday pay, and the increase in health care premiums. Over all, it worked out to over $10k in salalry loss alone, and not to mention the benefits cut. Does anybody think it will get better in '08, or will the next guy have buddies in the oil business too?

[don07tncav]

Ahhh but the oil companies are having record profits while airlines record losses. I'd personally have fewer problems with the oil companies if they weren't raking in the profits at my expense.

[thumperjsa]

Increased demand is an issue. Part of the problem as being stated by the petroleum industry is up till now, there was not enough demand to build additional refineries. Therefore, there is not enough ability to refine as much oil as can be pumped from the ground.

Of course, this is an artificial way of increasing the demand and keeping the supplies.

This also increases profits because now the refineries are running 100% in an attempt to keep the money flowing as fast as they can. Eventually they will either have to start taking some of those profits and increasing efficiencies of the current refineries or bring more on line.

How does this though explain the fact that in Venezuela, gas cost $.12 per gallon? Yes, 12 cents.

Either way, the Texas big oil families are swimming in money.

[Fire2235fighter]

I watched the news earler gas in iraq is 5cents a gallon..WHAT THE HELL

[John]

But you know...Venezuela is the 4th or 5th largest oil producing country, and they are a member of OPEC. And...our boys are getting killed hauling that .12 cent gas around Iraxxon. Sumpin' just ain't right about that. But so long as W's kids ain't gettin' killed it's ok.

[beechfront]

"Part of the problem as being stated by the petroleum industry is up till now, there was not enough demand to build additional refineries"


i have also read... they know that there is not enough oil left to warrant building more refineries.

[xs650mike]

I've been out of the loop for a couple of days, my ISP was down due to squirrels (I kid you not) chewing into the fiber-optic cables. Took my ISP a while to find out where.

Hey I've got news for you who are saying it's going to go to $3...$3 a gallon is here, at least in the San Francisco Bay Area, home to 6 refineries. When I rode down to meet LoHo, Uncle Spot and Diver Ray down in Los Baños that's what it was going for and even in rural California diesel (yes DIESEL!) is $3.05 or more. This means fuel surcharges to freight rates and higher prices for everything from lettuce to XS parts, it'll even raise fuel prices more...after all it goes to the gas station in trucks.

BTW my SF got 32 mpg for the 460 mile trip, about 250 miles of which was ridden at 80-90mph on I-5.

[Ken Talbot]

Yup, our most recent increase here in western Canada brought regular up to CA$1.059/litre. Doesn't sound bad till you do the math and come up with something like US$3.15/US gal

Maybe I should be switching my restoration efforts the other bike out in my garden shed:

[Materi]

Originally posted by beechfront
"Part of the problem as being stated by the petroleum industry is up till now, there was not enough demand to build additional refineries"


i have also read... they know that there is not enough oil left to warrant building more refineries.

OK, my company is a workover service, for those who don't know that means we work on oil and gas wells after they are completed. We don't sell oil, nor are we directly involved in the sale and distribution of gasoline. We do however, work in and with the petroleum industry and statements like this...well, they are just not true...no other way to put it. Not enough oil left...c'mon Beech, have you even looked at the US reserve data..let alone Mexico and Canada?
I'll say it again.. The problem lies not with reserve capacity, nor the ability to remove it...it is the insane restrictions placed on domestic producers..both the refineries and exploration, meaning drilling. Just as an example and this isn't even the tip of the tip of the tip of the iceberg, (without going into great and boring detail) we can't even spill a DROP OF WATER (not kidding) on the ground when producing coal bed methane (a type of natural gas) here in DROUGHT STRICKEN Wyoming. To be caught doing so would mean huge fines and months or longer in lost production. We must wait until certain times of the year to service wells in some areas until certain birds, whose existence in these areas is questionable at best, have been allowed proper privacy for breeding??!! Again, this is not a joke, this is happening in this country, and people think it is good for us all, and then bitch about the price of fuel?????

We are as sick as you are that the price at the pump continues to escalate while the task of utilizing our fossil fuels just gets tougher and more insane by the minute. Instead of posting your valid, though misinformed complaints on internet boards, if you really wanted to do something about gas prices and American independance on foreign terrorist fuel, you should be lobbying your legsilature on the ridiculous liberal environmental and other idiotic, common sense defying sanctions placed on domestic production.

I'm not kidding folks, check it out for yourselves, it's not to hard to find.

[xs650mike]

Ok Materi, you've got me going now. I do agree with you that there's still a lot of oil left in the ground. I grew up in Los Angeles where there were oil wells on islands in the middle of major streets. There's petroleum oozing from the ground right now on the lawns of Hancock Park.

But...I lived much more recently within smelling distance of 2 major San Francisco Bay Area refineries, Tosco Avon and Shell Martinez. Tosco used to release sulphurous fumes every night after 2:30 AM which I would smell as I warmed up my bike to go to work every morning at 4:00. Every once in a while someone would complain to the local paper and then Tosco would issue a press release to the effect that it had a one time "accidental" release of odiferous but "non-toxic" gas which in no way presented any hazard to the public and that the smell had completely disappated "within 1/2 hour" which I can tell you was a bald-faced lie. Of course the paper printed this as Gospel. This same refinery had several major fires every year up until very recently as well as numerous spills into the bay wetland bird sanctuary adjacent to the refinery. Tosco was notorious for not calling the fire department as required by law, instead relying on it's in-house fire fighters until things got away from them. The Contra Costa and Martinez Fire Departments really disliked risking their lives to quell some fire that Tosco allowed to get out of control before calling for help. Shell also had its share of accidents but nothing like Tosco. Chevron operates a large refinery at Richmond and pays millions in fines every year for toxic discharge into San Francisco Bay simply because it's cheaper to pay the fines than to behave responsibly. They have all but ruined the Dungeness crab fishery. Do you think those crab fisherman like losing their livelihoods to corporations that have tripled their profits in just three years? What about the poor people who fish the Bay to put food on their family's table who are now advised not to eat fish caught in the North bay which is where the refineries are since the fish are poison. It is no accident that Contra Costa County where these refineries are located has the highest cancer rate in the country as well as the highest rate of childhood asthma. Marin County (where the rich folks live) just across the Bay has the highest rate of breast cancer in the country. Would you rather have cheap gas or cancer? Most environmental laws aren't insane, the behavior of the oil companies is and if some environmental laws are too severe these corporations brought it on themselves by putting higher profit above the safety and quality of life of the public. As it is the laws haven't really been enforced, especially by the current administration. Why should the refineries be allowed to profit at the expense of other industries and the public at large? New regulation has forced the refineries to at least notify the public living alongside the refineries of these occurances, Shell has been pretty good about this but the others sometimes don't notify anyone unless there's a big cloud of visible smoke or people complain of a bad smell.

Before you go ahead and accuse me of being "Birkenstock-wearing liberal filth" realize that I've been called a "right wing wacko" because I support the 2nd Amendment and I've also been called a "pinko commie liberal" because I support the environment. The truth is I'm like most Americans, pretty much middle-of-the road. At the time I was living near those refineries I was plant manager in a factory making industrial enamels and lacquers. As you might imagine we used many products from those very refineries and generated a lot of toxic fumes and waste ourselves which cost us big bucks to dispose of properly and legally...and we still made a handsome profit! I think the oil companies should be made to play by the same rules as any other company or individual. If you believe that environmental regulation is the main cause of high fuel prices there's a bridge in New York which I'd like to sell you cheap! Don't you realize that oil company profits have tripled in the last 3 years? I read that in my local paper just a couple of days ago. Fuel prices have also tripled in the last three years. We are all being had! By the way my neighbor was over in the next county (Mendocino) yesterday and says that diesel was $3.42/gal. a 50 cent increase in less than 7 days. Do you really believe that's because the Bush administration is going all out to enforce draconian environmental laws? Who the hell told you that? Other than that, I agree with you completely...especially about your choice of motorcycle!

John said something about 12 cent gas in Iraq...that might be the price if you're willing to wait in line for a couple of days, if you want it pronto it's $6 or $7.

[Parr8hed]

Ken if you don't restore that bike, I will!!!

[beechfront]

yeah there is still a lot of oil left, for sure.

but once we reach the halfway mark, there will be some big changes. and many people think that halfway mark is either not too far off or here already.

[beechfront]

here is an interesting read....

PEAK OIL


i don't necessarily believe everything in the article, but it does make some good arguments.

[xs650mike]

And as Materi pointed out, China and India are now using huge amounts of fossil fuels. The Chinese don't seem to be worried much about the environment either...dunno about India, probably the same. My belief is that there's still a whole lot of oil left that hasn't been found yet but it's expensive oil since most of it will be found in environmentally sensitive areas such as beneath the sea which really complicates extracting it. If we kill the oceans, we kill the planet. We really need to be thinking about our grandchildren and great grandchildren not just about the price of fuel right now.

We really need more fuel efficient vehicles or a new source of energy. Back in the early 20th century Nicola Tesla, who was the originator of the alternating current theory and founder of the science of modern electronics, theorized that since the Earth is a giant rotating magnet there must be a way of harnessing that huge electrical energy to supply all mankind's energy needs. I know that sounds like science fiction but the guy actually did revolutionize electrical power generation and transmission when he designed the alternating current power plant built by George Westinghouse at Niagra Falls. No less an expert than Thomas Edison had insisted that an alternating current generator could not be built. Now nearly all electrical generation is alternating current.