Tales of the FNG

[Neup]

So, I planned on posting as a new member after I got a ride in to say how much I like the XS11s. My bike had other plans. 100 miles in, and I lost half of the engine (I think it is a bad ignition coil) and limped it to the nearest town. As I finish my lunch, I have some questions.

First, I rode about 20 miles under half power. Because of the imbalance, is it likely I've done damage to the engine? If I have to take it apart to check it out, that's fine, but I'd rather not ignore a potential problem.

Would I need to pull the engine completely to check the cam spacing it will pulling the tank and smaller components be enough? I need to work on it anyway, and this seems like it might be a good time to check.

What tools or parts do you carry with you when you go out. I have the basics, but I am not sure about the common sizes, parts and tools that go along with this specific bike.

Regarding the bike, I love it and will probably be up all night so I can be on the road this weekend.

Have a happy.

[BA80]

Just from experience of my own and others, most likely you have a broken pick up coil wire. (Under the left engine cover) That's the most common issue when you lose 2 cylinders at a time.

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=543

[Neup]

Just from experience of my own and others, most likely you have a broken pick up coil wire. (Under the left engine cover) That's the most common issue when you lose 2 cylinders at a time.

http://www.xs11.com/forum/showthread.php?t=543

Thanks for the help! Just got it home and in the garage. I will check that shortly since:

1) You are probably right, and

B) ignition coils are not readily available from the dealership anyway.

[motoman]

To add to BA80's suggestion, once cover is off, just looking at those wires is NOT enough. You need to take each wire with both hands and tug every inch between both hands. If insulation stretches, there is the break of the tiny internal wires.

[BA80]

Thanks for the help! Just got it home and in the garage. I will check that shortly since:

1) You are probably right, and

B) ignition coils are not readily available from the dealership anyway.

Anything you need most here can help with. Either OEM or otherwise.

[Neup]

Hey guys. Just a quick update. I couldn't get the bike to run well enough to try the diagnostic step of pulling on the coil wires to test for a wire break. I tried tugging on them and all four seem pretty solid (for the size of wires that is). The tutorial is pretty solid, so at least I feel confident that I can fix that problem if it turns out to be a problem.

However...

In the meantime, I pulled the coils to test them. Primary side is good for both. Couldn't get a reading for the secondaries. Found that the #1 cylinder plug cap is shot. After pulling both caps and trimming the wires a little to get fresh copper, it reads 15,7xx ohms. On the other coil, the reading bounces a lot. I get 15,8xx ohms at best, but a slight movement will bring it up to 16, 17, to open depending on the position.

I saw the post on replacing coil wires by cutting the housing and fitting the wires. Has anyone tried this? I'll get the dynateks or accel if I need to, but I'm not against a cheap solution either.

Thanks in advance for any help.

[motoman]

Hey guys. Just a quick update. I couldn't get the bike to run well enough to try the diagnostic step of pulling on the coil wires to test for a wire break. I tried tugging on them and all four seem pretty solid (for the size of wires that is). The tutorial is pretty solid, so at least I feel confident that I can fix that problem if it turns out to be a problem.

However...

In the meantime, I pulled the coils to test them. Primary side is good for both. Couldn't get a reading for the secondaries. Found that the #1 cylinder plug cap is shot. After pulling both caps and trimming the wires a little to get fresh copper, it reads 15,7xx ohms. On the other coil, the reading bounces a lot. I get 15,8xx ohms at best, but a slight movement will bring it up to 16, 17, to open depending on the position.

I saw the post on replacing coil wires by cutting the housing and fitting the wires. Has anyone tried this? I'll get the dynateks or accel if I need to, but I'm not against a cheap solution either.

Thanks in advance for any help.

The wires we were referring to were the pick-up coil wires. Left sidecover of engine that has Yamaha on it......remove it, and under there are the pick-up coil wires that need to be tugged on with both hands every inch that I referred to in post #4.

[Neup]

Beer makes my type gooder.

The wires we were referring to were the pick-up coil wires. Left sidecover of engine that has Yamaha on it......remove it, and under there are the pick-up coil wires that need to be tugged on with both hands every inch that I referred to in post #4.

I should have said pick-up coil wires in the third sentence, but that is the area I was referring to in the first paragraph. Too many Busch Latte's may have decreased my literary clarity...

I pulled the parts of the wire that did not have the loom around it (basically, what I could get at inside the case) on both the bottom and top sets of wires. I didn't see any stretch of the insulation indicating there was a break in the parts of the four wires I could get at. I assume that the common issue with the wire break is from the assembly turning during advance and returning to the original position, so I focused on the wires within the case. It's a pretty small gauge wire, and I don't exactly have a surgeon's hands, so it is possible I was a little to easy on them while checking. Should I be looking further up the loom as well?

I plan to get some caps tomorrow to see how that does. Even if it runs well, I still plan to double check those pick up wires as I can definitely see where they'd be problematic.

[fredintoon]

I should have said pick-up coil wires in the third sentence, but that is the area I was referring to in the first paragraph. Too many Busch Latte's may have decreased my literary clarity...
I pulled the parts of the wire that did not have the loom around it (basically, what I could get at inside the case) on both the bottom and top sets of wires. I didn't see any stretch of the insulation indicating there was a break in the parts of the four wires I could get at. I assume that the common issue with the wire break is from the assembly turning during advance and returning to the original position, so I focused on the wires within the case. It's a pretty small gauge wire, and I don't exactly have a surgeon's hands, so it is possible I was a little to easy on them while checking. Should I be looking further up the loom as well?
I plan to get some caps tomorrow to see how that does. Even if it runs well, I still plan to double check those pick up wires as I can definitely see where they'd be problematic.

Hi Neup,
BA80's link shows those stretchy wires and where to pull 'em.
And how to repair a broken wire.
There's a tip I read on this list about if the wire is too FUBAR to fix and needs to be replaced.
Ordinary bike wire has too few too thick wires in it's conductor to flex enough so it's gonna break on you pretty soon.
It's better to use the more flexible wire that multi-meter test wires are made from.
You are limited to red and black so don't get confused as to which wire went where.
Best you completely replace them one wire at a time.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Neup,

A little late to this party but good find on your bad plug cap. The coils are dual tower dual fire at the same time, the spark surge comes out one wire, thru plug cap, plug, ENGINE, then back up the other plug, cap, and back to coil. IF 1 cap is bad, current can't flow thru both and you can then loose both plugs=1/2 engine! You probably didn't do any damage to the engine, but you were still flushing the cylinders with fuel while it wasn't firing, and there is a possibility that you could have gotten some fuel past the rings into the oil contaminating it and that can damage the bearings. Also possibly fouling the plugs.

The ~15K secondary readings plug wire to plug wire WITHOUT the caps on is in the OEM spec ballpark. Hard to say if the fluctuation of readings is due to bad wires in plug leads, or just inconsistent meter probe contact during flexing/testing??

If you note the date on the plug wires in old coils tip, it was many years/decade+ ago. The OEM coils only delivered about 15KV at best, and will deliver LESS power while the engine is running because of the inline ballast resistor(BR) that drops the voltage from 12 to ~9 V. The BR is bypassed during startup mode.

The DynaTek's are rated at +35KV energy, and when installed on an XS11 that uses the BR, it's suggested to remove/bypass the BR so the coils get 12 V ALL of the time. The coils bought need to be the 3.0 Ohm style, again the older tech tip shows the 1.5 Ohm coils but keeps the BR. Our resident Electrics Guru likes keeping things as close to OEM as possible, so he likes teh 1.5 Ohm coils and BR. Yamaha eliminated the BR and went to 3.0 ohm coils in 81....so you decide!

T.C.

[skids]

The wires we were referring to were the pick-up coil wires. Left sidecover of engine that has Yamaha on it......remove it, and under there are the pick-up coil wires that need to be tugged on with both hands every inch that I referred to in post #4.

I thought he was testing the coil through the spark plug wires. 15Kohms sounds good.

[skids]

The wires we were referring to were the pick-up coil wires. Left sidecover of engine that has Yamaha on it......remove it, and under there are the pick-up coil wires that need to be tugged on with both hands every inch that I referred to in post #4.

I thought he was testing the coil through the spark plug wires. 15Kohms sounds good. My mistake. Sorry Brant, you were referring to post No.4.

[Neup]

Hi Neup,
BA80's link shows those stretchy wires and where to pull 'em.
And how to repair a broken wire.
There's a tip I read on this list about if the wire is too FUBAR to fix and needs to be replaced.
Ordinary bike wire has too few too thick wires in it's conductor to flex enough so it's gonna break on you pretty soon.
It's better to use the more flexible wire that multi-meter test wires are made from.
You are limited to red and black so don't get confused as to which wire went where.
Best you completely replace them one wire at a time.

That's a really good idea. Those wires are certainly far more flexible than the average wire. I would guess that a traditional (cheap) wire would also create a lot of resistance against movement of the coil as well. I knew I kept stupid ****e like old multimeter wires for a reason! Thanks for the reply!

[Neup]

Hey Neup,

A little late to this party but good find on your bad plug cap. The coils are dual tower dual fire at the same time, the spark surge comes out one wire, thru plug cap, plug, ENGINE, then back up the other plug, cap, and back to coil. IF 1 cap is bad, current can't flow thru both and you can then loose both plugs=1/2 engine! You probably didn't do any damage to the engine, but you were still flushing the cylinders with fuel while it wasn't firing, and there is a possibility that you could have gotten some fuel past the rings into the oil contaminating it and that can damage the bearings. Also possibly fouling the plugs.

The ~15K secondary readings plug wire to plug wire WITHOUT the caps on is in the OEM spec ballpark. Hard to say if the fluctuation of readings is due to bad wires in plug leads, or just inconsistent meter probe contact during flexing/testing??

If you note the date on the plug wires in old coils tip, it was many years/decade+ ago. The OEM coils only delivered about 15KV at best, and will deliver LESS power while the engine is running because of the inline ballast resistor(BR) that drops the voltage from 12 to ~9 V. The BR is bypassed during startup mode.

The DynaTek's are rated at +35KV energy, and when installed on an XS11 that uses the BR, it's suggested to remove/bypass the BR so the coils get 12 V ALL of the time. The coils bought need to be the 3.0 Ohm style, again the older tech tip shows the 1.5 Ohm coils but keeps the BR. Our resident Electrics Guru likes keeping things as close to OEM as possible, so he likes teh 1.5 Ohm coils and BR. Yamaha eliminated the BR and went to 3.0 ohm coils in 81....so you decide!

T.C.

Thanks for the info! After I get it to start and run, I'll do a oil flush right away. Fortunately, as several have noted, it's pretty easy to work on which makes it nice for someone switching to street bikes and a DIY mindset.

I got replacement spark plug caps for all four and should be replacing them this weekend. The previous caps were the screw in type and the copper had darkened significantly on all but one connection. I don't have the crimping tool specific for this, but I don't see where it would be impossible without them. Is it standard to solder them and then crimp them? It kind of makes the most sense to me, but there may be reasons I don't know about. If what I'm describing doesn't make sense, I'll include pictures when I get back home.

Regarding the coils, it seems that the secondary wire is not making a great connection inside the coil. It would make sense if you pull on the secondary wires you will break the connection, but in this case just positioning the secondary wire causes fluctuation in the resistance reading/open circuit depending on the position. I will see if I can stabilize the wires so they maintain consistent readings, but new coils may be in my future. In which case, I'll probably bypass the ballast resistor and put in the collection of crap I've removed from the bike so far.

Thanks for your help!

[DiverRay]

DO NOT SOLDER THE PLUG WIRES!!! Crimp a new connector, but do NOT solder it . It WILL fail SOONER rather than later. The stock plug caps also have a 5K Ohm resistor inside to reduce electrical noise to cars nearby. But, without the cap, you can run Iridium plugs and have them last for 15K miles without doing anything!
New coils really IS the best way to go. The coils and wires on these bikes are WAY past the replacement date, like me...