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  • "Smart" TV shopping...pun intended!

    Hey again,

    Well, several years ago our old 52" 4 x 3 format rear projection TV died, and so we got a new VIZIO 46" 16x9 format(equivalent viewing area of other tv) in LCD type but it was not a smart TV. Prices for LED TV's, especially the larger ones have come down considerably, and we're looking at acquiring one of the BIG ones, ie. 65" diagonal! Believe it or not...SWMBO was the one that suggested we get a new TV!

    Anyways, started my usual internet searching and reviewing and have learned some new stuff. Remember, I work in the Eyecare field, and so I know that the human eye can't see image changes that occur at a rate of just above 50 hz, that's why we can't see the filament in a regular light bulb flicker, partly why electricity was set at 60hz, along with making is easier to have a clock keep time easily.

    SO...now they have TV refresh rates listed as 120hz, and then they go up to 240 and even 960 hz. Kinda of a waste of technology considering we can't see any flicker on anything above 60hz anyways! Secondly, this whole UHD 4K screen resolution....geez! Standard TV started at 273 horizontal lines of resolution. Was okay for both broadcast bandwidth, the limitation of the viewing CRT scanner, and the largest screens of ~25" back then. Then with both the development of computers, and higher screen resolutions that eventually migrated into TVs in the HiDef range of 1080P which is about 4 times as sharp as standard TV, and it looks quite crisp and sharp at much larger viewing sizes.

    Now, for the fun math. I remember learning that the human eye can resolve or see the separation/difference in a straight line(s)/edge of about 1/32" at 10 feet, a fairly common viewing distance especially for large screen TVs. That 1/32" is about 0.79mm.

    This is from a wikipedia article on vision:
    Normal visual acuity is commonly referred to as 20/20 vision (even though acuity in normally sighted people is generally higher), the metric equivalent of which is 6/6 vision. At 20 feet or 6 meters, a human eye with nominal performance is able to separate contours that are approximately 1.75 mm apart.
    So...using that value, at 10 feet, the separate contours would be about 0.875mm apart, pretty close to that 1/32" value huh! A 16x9 format 60" screen is about 31" high, a 70" about 36" high. From a VIZIO owner's manual spec section, their 60" has a pixel pitch/size of 0.693mm, and their 70" is 0.801mm. A 1080 screen has 1080 horizontal lines of resolution, and at that 20/20 or 10/10 acuity of separation height of 0.875mm, the screen would be about 945mms, or 37" high, just a tad under 1 meter. So....a 60-70" screen at 1080 P is about right at the level of human clarity and perception, and if the separation size of the lines is any smaller, a human can't SEE IT!!!

    Now, let's look at the 4K/UHD TV's, where they are cramming about 4000 horizontal lines of resolution, and so far most of these screens are also in the 60-70" range. To fit that many lines on the screen the pixel sizes would need to be from 0.175mm to 0.200mm high....which is way beyond the human eyes ability to see at that normal 10foot distance. A person would need to be 1/4 the distance away to be able to see the individual pixels/lines or about 2.5 feet!

    So...in conclusion the 4K technology is useless and unnecessary for humans viewing it at ~10 feet or even 5 feet away! SAVE YOUR MONEY FOLKS!!!

    Almost forgot, I also learned that each TV/Brand system uses a different type of operating system or such with regards to it's internet capabilities and APPs that they have/provide. My question is for those who have smart TV's, especially either Vizio or Samsung, how would you rate the use of the TV and the APPs? I learned that Vizio doesn't have a web browser in their collection of apps, even with their new V.I.A. Internet Apps. Samsung has been in the business a while and have quite a few more apps, like up to 1000, but not every app is available for every TV, seems dependent on the size of the screen as to what they allow the TV to access.

    T.C.
    T. C. Gresham
    81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
    79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
    History shows again and again,
    How nature points out the folly of men!

  • #2
    I like my Samsung 55" but it's 2 years old now and they've made serious improvements. I'll review ratings and will probably get a new 70" next year when they drop the prices.

    I'd check the Amazon reviews, lots of people post there and you'll need to filter through them but you'll get real world experiences.

    When I buy again I'll probably get another Samsung, mainly because I like it.
    79 SF & 80 LG MNS
    73 & 74 RD 350's
    73 Honda CL 450
    Graveyard - '81 XS850 Special

    All of my bikes are projects, maybe one day I'll have them running.

    Comment


    • #3
      I bought a Visio 42" when my old tube type dinosaur finally died. The Visio lasted 1 day and it started acting up. I took it back and got a Sanyo, haven't had an issue with it in 5 years except the on/off button doesn't like to work on the remote.
      Greg

      Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”

      ― Albert Einstein

      80 SG Ol' Okie;79 engine & carbs w/pods, 45 pilots, 140 mains, Custom Mac 4 into 2 exhaust, ACCT,XS850 final drive,110/90/19 front tire,TKat fork brace, XS750 140 MPH speedometer, Vetter IV fairing, aftermarket hard bags and trunk, LG high back seat, XJ rear shocks.

      The list changes.

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      • #4
        Have Samsung 48" smart tv........to smart for me.....SWMBO messes with all that, (I regularly 'argue' with my smart phone). As far as TV's, i've favored Samsung's picture quality and tv electronics for bout a decade now. This one's almost 2yrs. old with no issues. Have two other Samsungs, one in house and other in fith-wheel that are 5-7yrs.
        Wasn't much help to your question, but I just turn them on, channel surf, turn it off.
        81H Venturer1100 "The Bentley" (on steroids) 97 Yamaha YZ250(age reducer) 92 Honda ST1100 "Twisty"(touring rocket) Age is relative to the number of seconds counted 'airing' out an 85ft. table-top.

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        • #5
          all these TVs

          kind of reminds me of the PC market. Perpetual obsolescence so that everyone will get on the I want the latest and greatest. As you have pointed out ... most of all of that is a waste unless you are a big gamer. From some of the reviews I have read as for the increased refresh rates ... anything above 60 is basically overkill unless you watch a lot of live action events. Of course most of them these days gives you the ability to override the 240 or more back down to 60 for normal viewing. For me... just like the PC world I always liked to stay just above the middle of the pack. That way you don't overpay for the supposed latest and greatest technology today just to be disappointed by your choice tomorrow. Marketing is based on cognitive dissonance ( feeling good about yourself after the purchase ) as is what most of American capitalism is based on. They want you as a repeat customer however I do believe that if someone put too much into researching the current TV market you would go nuts. I believe one thing is true though they truly believe that bigger is better and TVs continue to get progressively larger and cheaper from year to year. I don't know how big an area you have for viewing but have you looked into projection TV as an alternative?
          2 - 80 LGs bought one new
          81 LH
          02 FXSTB Nighttrain
          22 FLTRK Road Glide Limited
          Jim

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          • #6
            So TC, how much of all that tech eye info do you get to use at work?

            Regarding refresh rates, I do slightly notice the difference with sports. I was at a Best Buy today for the first time in years. Man these TVs are getting big, and cheaper for the normal sizes. What's the deal with the curved screens? I didn't get it.
            80 SG
            81 SH in parts
            99 ST1100
            91 ST1100

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            • #7
              Curved Screens

              .... the latest got to have it. It is different so it has to be better. Supposedly you can see the screen better if sitting from a side view versus straight on. They have to come up with something to make you think you need it.
              2 - 80 LGs bought one new
              81 LH
              02 FXSTB Nighttrain
              22 FLTRK Road Glide Limited
              Jim

              Comment


              • #8
                Well,

                The Black Friday "WEEK" sale arrived, and so I went to my local B-J's wholesale store, and picked up the Samsung UN65H6300AF 65" diag HD TV with quad core cpu. Got it for $1169 vs. the $1499 usual discount price! Of course the friggin' $129 worth of taxes still hurt!!

                Had to do a bit of shuffling around of TV's, move the existing 46" unit from the "Family Viewing Room" into the aux "living room", then the 39" one there went into my computer/game room to replace my old CRT styled 25" unit, which I hope to donate to the neighbors family across the street for a garage video game unit or such.

                After about an HOUR of going thru the setup process establishing the internet connection and such....programming the universal remote to control the cable, DVD units. It looked quite sharp.....BUT yet it didn't look as sharp as I was thinking it should. THEN I noticed that when I turned the cable box off and on....it would briefly display on the "SOURCE" info screen that the video source Cable/HDMI-1 was at 720p??

                I could have sworn that the cable was supposed to be full 1080i/p HD resolution. SO.....I found the "settings" menu section for the cable box, then the EXTRA menu for the audio/video settings....and found that the output had been set to 720p! I reset it for the 1080i/p level, and the image THEN looked a bit better/sharper. ALL of this time with the 46" screen and I had been watching it in 720p level of HD and not full 1080i/p !! Yes, the 46" TV was able to handle the full 1080 resolution, so was the smaller 39" as well as the 36" one we have in the bedroom...I reset that settop box up to 1080 also.

                SO.....just a word....if you're using an HD TV and HD cable, you may want to check the video output settings to ensure that it's actually sending the full 1080 res. image to your screen....I think they may be defaulted to 720p!

                Happy viewing!!

                T.C.

                PS....I'm amazed at the restoration that Turner Broadcasting did to the WIZARD OF OZ....even in 4x3 format, it's amazingly clear and crisp, and vivid as well. "We're off to see the wizard...la..la...la..la...la....la!"
                T. C. Gresham
                81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                History shows again and again,
                How nature points out the folly of men!

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've got a pretty big front room, and where the couch sits is probably close to 20' from the TV. We bought a Sanyo 60" last year, upgraded from a Pioneer HD projector TV as well. For the size of our room, the 60" isn't big enough, so I'm now looking at the 80". My oldest son shakes his head and tells me, "Dad, if you'd just scoot the couch forward a few feet, the 60" would be fine, and that would save you about a thousand bucks a foot.." lol.

                  As Dean stated, I can tell a difference between the 60 and 120 refresh rates, but haven't done a side by side between the 120-240. As far as the difference between the 1080 and the 4k, in the store when they show fields of wheat blowing in the wind and you can see every small stem growing from each grain, or birds with flowing feathers and you see every individual strand on the feathers, it looks amazing. But in general viewing, with the 1080, I can already see the pores in the actor/actresses face.. do we really need to see each fine hair of peach fuzz growing out of each pore as well? I have to admit that I was tempted by one of the doorbuster black friday deals I found was a 70" 4k with 240 refresh rate for just under a thousand, but you'd have probably had to stand out in the cold in line all night to get it and I'm just not that dedicated.

                  I've seen they have over 100" screens now and the 80" didn't come down in price quite as much as I was hoping, so I may keep the one I have another year. Maybe 2 if I see those 100" screens coming within grasp.. lol. Can someone come help me scoot my couch forward? The last Assasin's Creed that they'll have for the Xbox 360 just came out and I must get up close and personal to the people that need a little killin' lol.

                  Speaking of Xbox... It and a Blueray player are what I use for internet connecting for things like Netflix, HBO-Go and such, not the TV.
                  Last edited by trbig; 11-23-2014, 09:46 PM.
                  Try your hardest to be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

                  You can live to be 100, as long as you give up everything that would make you want to live to be 100!

                  Current bikes:
                  '06 Suzuki DR650
                  *'82 XJ1100 with the 1179 kit. "Mad Maxim"
                  '82 XJ1100 Completely stock fixer-upper
                  '82 XJ1100 Bagger fixer-upper
                  '82 XJ1100 Motor/frame and lots of boxes of parts
                  '82 XJ1100 Parts bike
                  '81 XS1100 Special
                  '81 YZ250
                  '80 XS850 Special
                  '80 XR100
                  *Crashed/Totalled, still own

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TopCatGr58 View Post
                    PS....I'm amazed at the restoration that Turner Broadcasting did to the WIZARD OF OZ....even in 4x3 format, it's amazingly clear and crisp, and vivid as well. "We're off to see the wizard...la..la...la..la...la....la!"


                    "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain ..."

                    - The Great and Powerful Oz


                    P.S. Thanks for the tip on checking the video output settings ...
                    Marco

                    Current bikes:
                    1979 Yamaha XS Eleven Special (SF)
                    1979 Honda CBX
                    2002 Kawasaki ZRX1200R

                    Rest in Peace, Don Glardon (DGXSER) 1966-2014
                    WE MISS YOU, DON

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I haven't actually possessed a television for 20 years. The last one I had was CRT. We have to pay about $250 a year for a TV licence (to fund the BBC, a non-commercial station) and I got rid of the TV after I realised I hadn't turned it on for 3 months. I've never had one since.

                      On the odd occasion when I get an involuntary glimpse of someone else's TV, I'm amazed at how the attention-time span has dropped...you know, lots of changes of screen, flashing, not staying on anything very long. It makes me feel ill. Also, I'm struck by how rubbish many of the programmes are. Our commercial channels are irritating enough with the commercials but I gather there are lots more commercials on US TV?

                      I do have a small DVD player, and am not anti visual entertainment. It's just that a lot of TV here is completely moronic.
                      XS1100F 1980 European model. Standard. Dyna coils. Iridium plugs. XS750 final drive (sometimes). Micron fork brace. Progressive front springs. Geezer regulator/rectifier. Stainless 4 into 2 exhaust. Auto CCT (Venturer 1300) SOLD. New project now on the go. 1980 European model.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by James England View Post
                        I do have a small DVD player, and am not anti visual entertainment. It's just that a lot of TV here is completely moronic.

                        If I lived alone, I wouldn't have one either. That one hour moronic program includes 20 minutes of commercials or more. I have more than 100 channels of rubbish. I do like the fact that the new ones will allow me to watch you start your bike on the big screen, if I had internet that was fast enough.
                        Marty (in Mississippi)
                        XS1100SG
                        XS650SK
                        XS650SH
                        XS650G
                        XS6502F
                        XS650E

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                        • #13
                          Well,

                          If I had "Palacial" digs like Tod, then yeah, I would want a pretty large screen also. My concern with projectors is that they still use a BULB that has a limited life span....forget the exact number but it was a relatively small amount of HOURS of life...and at ~8 hours a day use....would only last about 1 year before needing replacement. And for the good ones with really BRIGHT bulbs, they were running close to $100 a piece or such!! I think they've come out with LCD vs. the DLP type, but still have the bulbs. The brightness isn't anywhere what a TV is, and so you have to have the room dark to see it clearly/brightly. And after reading an article on pros/cons, another consideration was IF using a Wii/Xbox-kinect....you will get in the way of the projector while playing! Also, a projector is just that, you will still need a separate TUNER/receiver to drive the projector which adds more $$.

                          If money wasn't any problem, then a projection system for 150" screens would be great, and at that size...going up to 4K would then be more necessary for the same Hidef viewing at the 20' or more viewing distance, even more $$.

                          Hey James, just another reason why we "colonists" left!! TV taxes indeed! We have BBC type channels....they're called public broadcasting/educational channels. They used to be subsidized a bit by the US gov't, but they recently pulled that as part of the budget crunch, and so they have fund drives more often now. The other channels are paid for by advertising, so yes...commercials....but I have to get up to Pee sometime!

                          But yes, I don't watch that much either....most of the programming is TRIPE IMHO also, but watching MOVIES is more enjoyable on the larger screen!

                          T.C.
                          T. C. Gresham
                          81SH "Godzilla" . . .1179cc super-rat.
                          79SF "The Teacher" . . .basket case!
                          History shows again and again,
                          How nature points out the folly of men!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just bought a non-smart 60" for my youngest kid and his wife tonight for their early Christmas present. Their couch sits @ 7-8 feet from the TV and that thing looks frikkin huge! lol.

                            *Sigh... May have to rearrange the ol' palace a bit..
                            Try your hardest to be the kind of person your dog thinks you are.

                            You can live to be 100, as long as you give up everything that would make you want to live to be 100!

                            Current bikes:
                            '06 Suzuki DR650
                            *'82 XJ1100 with the 1179 kit. "Mad Maxim"
                            '82 XJ1100 Completely stock fixer-upper
                            '82 XJ1100 Bagger fixer-upper
                            '82 XJ1100 Motor/frame and lots of boxes of parts
                            '82 XJ1100 Parts bike
                            '81 XS1100 Special
                            '81 YZ250
                            '80 XS850 Special
                            '80 XR100
                            *Crashed/Totalled, still own

                            Comment

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