Pay attention to the road!!!

[BA80]

Any braking on the front wheel brings the bike upright in a turn its just centrifigual force.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that Ron. If you enter a corner too hot(guilty as charged ) the front brake is ALL you should use to scrub off some speed. If you hit that rear brake your gonna get real up close and personal with the pavement in a hurry. I'm not saying grab a handfullof lever and bind it up but some gentle braking on THE FRONT ONLY will scrub off enough speed to allow making the turn.

Using the front brake as you said will compress the forks, in turn it pushes the front tire harder into the pavement creating better traction there. Hit the rear brake and not only will it lift the rear wheel because of design, but braking takes wieght off the rear wheel due to physics.

A quick low side will ensue.

[jetmechmarty]

Greg,

Isn't that what trail braking is? You feed front brake in the corner to shorten the forks and quicken steering. No, I'm not talented enough to do it, at least not intentionally.

[BA80]

Greg,

Isn't that what trail braking is? You feed front brake in the corner to shorten the forks and quicken steering. No, I'm not talented enough to do it, at least not intentionally.

I didn't know there was a name for it, I call it "Oh crap! I need to slow this thing down a little!"

[madmax-im]

definiition

Heres the wiki definition...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

[crazy steve]

...but I also see the fault in the rider. More attentive riding most likely would have meant seeing the oil/antifreeze spot...

+1 on that! One thing I've learned over the years is that things that in a car have little or no importance can be critically important when riding. 'Stuff' on the road is a big deal when riding; the one really 'good' crash I had was caused by a dusting of cinders on the road in a corner. My fault, as I was really cooking through the corner and simply ran out of traction; I could see/feel the tire moving sideways...

One clue I always heed is if I see where any road flares have been burned; that tells me that whatever happened took time to clear away, and chances are really good that there may be stuff on the road; I'd be surprised if the second rider in this incident didn't have that 'clue' before crashing. I hate to say it, but IMO for most motorcycle accidents the blame can be laid at the feet of the rider, at least partially if not totally. The level of attention you need when riding is waaay higher than when driving...

[cruiser]

Interesting discussion about braking into corners. What are the thoughts about the “linked” system of which both mine have? I’ve heard the negative stuff about this system but it’s what I’m used to and do like it.
I guess years of riding I’ve become familiar with the reaction of this system. I rarely use the right front brake into a corner and with the linked system don’t you get the best of both worlds? Scrub off speed with both front and rear yet still diving the front shocks for better turning radius into the corner?

Was this the theory Yamaha had when they developed this system?
Does anyone know the braking ratio front and back on the linked system?

I’ve done Arkansas and had a few pucker moments but as others have said, prepare your line and look through and past the corner have been the most help for me.
I’ve been behind Tod and could still see him by the end of the run so I’m happy!

[DAVINCI]

IDK, I occasionally brake in a corner to adjust my line and although i don't do it aggressively, I've never had an "Oh ****" moment. But then I'm not a very aggressive rider to begin with, at least not as aggressive as SOME of these boys here that I've rode with (you know who you are)

If you watch close, you see the Moto GP guys braking in turns all the time.

[trbig]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with that Ron. If you enter a corner too hot(guilty as charged ) the front brake is ALL you should use to scrub off some speed. If you hit that rear brake your gonna get real up close and personal with the pavement in a hurry. I'm not saying grab a handfullof lever and bind it up but some gentle braking on THE FRONT ONLY will scrub off enough speed to allow making the turn.

Using the front brake as you said will compress the forks, in turn it pushes the front tire harder into the pavement creating better traction there. Hit the rear brake and not only will it lift the rear wheel because of design, but braking takes wieght off the rear wheel due to physics.

A quick low side will ensue.

I respectfully disagree... with part of that. A very hard braking with the front in a corner does indeed try to stand the bike up. You have to turn even harder to keep the same turn angle you had. Under very hard braking, the back end is dancing around anyway.. almost a stoppie.. and a few times, I've taken corners sideways like a flat tracker on dirt. Lots and lots of times, I've steered with just the throttle since the bike was leaned as far as could safely go.

So under most conditions, I use the different brakes depending on what I want the bike to do since they affect the bike totally different. More back brake keeps the nose from diving so bad, but too much, and you low-side like Greg said. But most of the stopping power is in the front, so leaned or not, if you've GOT to scrub speed, it's your best bet.. but be ready for the bike to feel like it's trying to stand back up. That's something you don't get with the linked system. Under normal riding conditions, like Randy, who doesn't get himself into the "Oh crap" situations, the linked brakes will work fine. Usually, a more advanced rider that rides a bit more aggressive and wants more control over the bike won't like the linked system.

[BA80]

I've taken corners sideways like a flat tracker on dirt. Lots and lots of times, I've steered with just the throttle since the bike was leaned as far as could safely go.

Now your just bragging.

I bet you were snapping pics at the same time.

[BA80]

Under very hard braking, the back end is dancing around anyway.. almost a stoppie..

I've never been on it THAT hard.

[trbig]

Now your just bragging.

I bet you were snapping pics at the same time.

No, those flat-track style times were when I think more luck was involved than skill. At the "Oh crap!" moment.. you get a pucker. Go beyond that moment and you have to go clean yourself afterwards. lol.

The turns where you're controlling the steering with tiny little throttle inputs/reductions... suspension mashed down... footpegs not really scraping, but tickling along the asphalt...right at that moment, all is well with the world. At that moment, to me, it's like poetry. During those times, a full faced helmet comes in handy because I'd end up with too many bugs in my teeth from my s#$%-eating grin. BUT.. right on the edge like that, it doesn't leave much room for things like gravel, oil spots, critters, decreasing radius curves, etc... and it can get you in trouble. Cody (Maximan) has been behind me on his Concourse during several of those and said he could see wisps of smoke and little pieces of the rear tire scrubbing off like eraser. Thin tar snakes will let the back slip a few inches, then grab, and it keeps the adrenalin pumping.

*Sigh.. Pretty much done with those days, but I've got the memories to keep me grinning.

[BA80]

Yeah, I remember Cody talking about the smoke from your tires, I saw that following Ivan on his FJR. He had rubber all over the sides of his bike when we stopped.

[TopCatGr58]

I, too, am enjoying this discussion. I've always been concerned about using the front brake IN A TURN for fear of having the front SLIDE if you encounter a little dust or such, it seems like it doesn't take an instant and the front wheel is OUT, and you're down on your side! You see that with the MotoGp guys all the time. With the rear brake, IF it slides a little, I feel more comfortable handling that and can ease off a little to regain traction. I use the front brake most of the time for STRAIGHT riding and braking situations.

I have experienced a couple of OH CRAP moments, like as mentioned going a little hot in to a turn and then have the turn become a DECREASING RADIUS turn...gets tighter as you progress thru it, so you have to change your line and lower your speed to be able to get thru it, and since I'm leaned fairly far over by that time I don't dare try to use the front brake, but WILL apply the rear along with decel if necessary. I'm sure I've not ridden my bike as aggressively as Tod has, but I have had some fun. But also like Tod NOW, once I get my forward controls removed, I'll be able to lean more without having to shift my butt sideways, just set a good pace and just enjoy the twisties instead of WORKING to get thru them too quickly.

With regards to the 2nd rider that went down, many of the turns on the Dragon don't provide much of a view of the road ahead, and IF you're negotiating the turns at a decent pace...well within a rider and his bike's capabilities, one can still come upon such a slippery patch before they could ever see it much less have time and space to react to it. And on the Dragon you don't expect to encounter such road conditions since the route is run almost continuously by both cars and bikes! A tough break for the 2nd rider for sure!

JMHO...hate to say it but I think it's the policeman's fault for not ensuring that the road was cleared of slide hazards once the cleanup was done. They know that bikers run that road and leaving such condition on the road I feel was negligence on their part! Part of their job is to ensure the safety of the people travelling on the highway.

Ron, I know you're a proponent of laying the bike down, but I've always felt that technique was for old bikers that learned it before the advent of dual front disc brakes. I've had a few spills on mine, one was going to work at Naval Hosp one morning, not a mile from home, down a 2 lane 2 way local road, sitting tall in the seat, headlight, sun over my shoulder but not blinding glare, approached uncontrolled crossroad.....lots of gravel strewn around edge of road at cross road, NO SHOULDER, oncoming car with NO turn signal, driver/woman looking directly at me but slowing down...I didn't tap my horn.. she then turns left in front of me, only travelling 35mph limit....I hit ALL of my brakes....no room to swerve...remember gravel...am getting it slowed down quickly, looks like I'll just miss her...rear brake lifts enough to CHIRP, she hears that and STOPS dead in the road, I have no where to go, plow right into her front bumper, relax and release off my bike, fly thru the air rotating and landing across her hood into her windshield totally smashing it, then my legs inertia continue past the windshield and pull me off onto the ground. I get up, wipe the broken glass off, front of bike forks bent into engine...that's when my frame got perfectly bent at the neck and I acquired my 2" trail adjustment! If I had locked up just the rear and layed it down, probably would have gotten considerable road rash thru jeans, might have gotten run over by car, who knows. The frame/engine sliding on the road has much less braking efficiency than the rubber tires, so a person is more likely to impact what they are sliding into at a much faster speed vs. hitting the brakes to max.

T.C.

[ViperRon]

TC not a proponet of laying it down or hitting head on have done both and not my fault at all. Some times its better to lock it down and pray. Looking at that bike its low swung heavy profile I personally would have braked hard front end till the curve and then turned hard accelerating max lean with hopes to avoid a lowsider. However I would not have braked in the turn either with front or rear. I'd avoid the front because the bike is low and appears heavy and its a panic moment and odds of me safely performing trail brake are slim and could easily and quickly become a highsider and then I alone could be hitting that car head on. Applying rear brake down hill progressive slope would still throw weight forward reducing rear traction pushing the already low front end down and with a turn possibly creating a quick lowside dump. With power on the front rises increasing my possible lean angle thowing weight to rear and if lean angle is great enough make the turn. On the XS1100 as high as it is if I was not loaded heavy good surface I might try trail breaking. Darn that is Iffy!!!!! However for any novice rider without great experience my advice would be to not try sport bike moves on a heavy cruiser it usually ends up badly. I do agree with Crazy Steve about the possibility of gravel on the inside edges and in the fall my worry is those wet leaves but I have also met my fair share of autos on my side in curves so I bet on me handling the leaves and gravel over dodging an idiot on my side anyday

I am not intent on arguing to make me right just making sure my view point is clear. First of all pay attention and just maybe you don't have to do either, get too distracted and it won't matter anyway.

I know many may dissagree but given a choice I'll take the lowsider and you take the highsider and you'll be in heaven before me.

For the second rider I'd check the law for that state but in Virginia it is the responsibility of the responding officer to call in fire, medical, hazardous chemicals etc to make the road safe depending on balanced risk involved with blocking trafic. Wrecker is responsible for sweeping glass picking up all parts and basic clean up. Biker may be able to launch a formal complaint againt the officer I would.

[BA80]

For the second rider I'd check the law for that state but in Virginia it is the responsibility of the responding officer to call in fire, medical, hazardous chemicals etc to make the road safe depending on balanced risk involved with blocking trafic. Wrecker is responsible for sweeping glass picking up all parts and basic clean up. Biker may be able to launch a formal complaint againt the officer I would.

If I'm not mistaken that's in North Carolina. ...

Edit......Sorry. Misreadthe first line.