Pay attention to the road!!!

[TopCatGr58]

Secondly, where does one obtain training for handling a motorcycle in turns. I don't think that the m/c safety courses teach it. Is there other training such as tutorials or actual hands-on? It would be nice to have training prior to learning via "seat of the pants" especially for new riders.

MP

Darn, I was going to do that, create a simple video from all of the stills, wish they had taken the first images showing him hamming it up for the camera!

Reviewing this, I can see where he hit the brakes as he was straightening up, then released, and then hit them again just before he impacted. He might have had a pulsating brake light, don't know?

Pitt, I learned how to ride a MC very early, first a bicycle, then a minibike, then a moped, then an Indian 90cc, then my very own '67 Yam. 305cc 2 stroke that I got to ride for about a year. I learned about countersteering naturally while riding the 305, so I learned that you make the bike turn by "making" it lean through handlebar maneuvering, not just by leaning my body! That aspect IS taught in the MSF.

Later I got my Yam. Tx500 and wrecked it a few weeks later due to a freak accident !(statistics work!) I got it fixed, continued riding it for some 6 years, took it with me to Japan, got a Triple and rode it 1.5 years there, also got my XS11 and brought it home on my transfer. Rode it another 9 years locally with a few long distance rides, but never got to experience the extremely twisty roads like at the Dragon. Bike/tranny died, sat 9 years, then rebuilt, rode again locally 1 year, then started going on Rally rides with the XS11 community.

I got to experience the twisties the FALL season of my 2nd year after my rebuild, and received a little tutelage from Gary (66) AND Bruce Gerkin which mainly was to NOT fixate on the road right in front of my tire, but to look well ahead of the curve. My bike had and still has a slight handling problem in that it likes to OVERSTEER a bit due to it's reduced trail(~2") vs. the OEM 6", but it permits me to be able to maneuver my bike similar to sport bikes!

Since that 2nd year after my rebuild(2003), I've been getting "extreme" twisty experience a couple of times a year, and so I think I have acquired a decent level of skill. I will admit that I have NOT taken the MSF course, I know I should, and probably will this coming year to see if I can "learn" some new things, and possibly UNLEARN some bad things! To obtain my MC license cert. I did have to learn many of the basic safety techniques that are taught by the DMV's both in Texas and in Virginia.

"Learning" to ride the twisties is a mixture of both getting riding experience on the actual twisty roads, but also being able to apply earlier learned skill sets...countersteering, knowing how and when to apply the brakes and the throttle in turns, and starting out going relatively SLOW when first negotiating the twisties to not ride beyond a person's current skill level. Then as they get more experience they learn how to handle and maneuver their bike better, and also the limits of the bike and rider in the hopes of not pulling a "Tod" going beyond their or their bikes capabilities!

Wow, this has turned into a long answer, but I hope you can see that riders should be getting the basic skill sets from just riding locally, that have to TURN sometimes, on and off ramps are fun, as well as roads with a few curves, they should KNOW how to countersteer and actually USE it for steering their bikes. Okay, I'll shut up now! :P

T.C.

[IanDMacDonald]

I'd say the pictures tell that story better. I've only had to lay a bike down once on the highway (I rode that thing for a thousand feet), and it was like second-nature to yank those handlebars to my left and put all my weight on my left side and pray that nobody ran over me. Check out this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1iUE...eature=related

[jetmechmarty]

That works too if you use enough.

Not so great if you leave it in the road.

[jwhughes3]

TC,

Tod can answer himself but having ridden with him I dont think he crashed from exceeding his riding abilities but from doing too many things at once combined with unforgiving road conditions AND extreme riding. He is an avid photographer while riding, Ive tried it and cannot do it without automatic settings. He has settled down but I hope to have his skill in handling, I just dont ride enough.

Anyway, back on about the crash video, it looked the same in video....braking to lessen crash versus trying to lean out of it.

I hope I would have leaned out to the point of laying it down versus head on. It looks like it hurt.

John

[BA80]

TC,

He is an avid photographer while riding, Ive tried it and cannot do it

+ 1 John.

[trbig]

John, correct me if I'm wrong, but much like your deal in Arkansas.. you didn't think you could make the turn, so you ended up straightening up and going straight off the road, correct? My "Guess" is you thought you couldn't make the turn and you fixated on trying to get slowed down as much as you could.. knowing you were going to leave the road.. instead of just leaning more and making the turn after you slowed a bit more. We would all like to look at that guy's bad day in these pics and think we'd have done it differently.

Many times I've come in to a corner way too hot and had one of those "Oh crap" adrenalin dump and pucker moments. It seems a very natural thing to look directly at the threat approaching, (Like a Corvette) and it's the absolute wrong thing to do. I compare it to coming in to a dark room, seeing a monster, then ignoring the monster and looking for the exit. The majority of the time, I look for the exit, but there's still a few times with everything going on, that we (I) tend to keep an eye on the monster. So, I have decided to still have a little fun, but try to avoid the "Oh crap" moments. Healing (I'm not 18 any more) and finding parts for the bikes sucks.

[BA80]

John, correct me if I'm wrong, but much like your deal in Arkansas.. you didn't think you could make the turn, so you ended up straightening up and going straight off the road, correct? My "Guess" is you thought you couldn't make the turn and you fixated on trying to get slowed down as much as you could.. knowing you were going to leave the road.. instead of just leaning more and making the turn after you slowed a bit more. We would all like to look at that guy's bad day in these pics and think we'd have done it differently.

Many times I've come in to a corner way too hot and had one of those "Oh crap" adrenalin dump and pucker moments. It seems a very natural thing to look directly at the threat approaching, and it's the absolute wrong thing to do. I compare it to coming in to a dark room, seeing a monster, then ignoring the monster and looking for the exit. The majority of the time, I look for the exit, but there's still a few times with everything going on, that we (I) tend to keep an eye on the monster. So, I have decided to still have a little fun, but try to avoid the "Oh crap" moments. Healing (I'm not 18 any more) and finding parts for the bikes sucks.

I came within inches of loosing it on that same corner at the same time. I had to force myself to look left at the road rather than the ditch.

It was one of those boot scrapin' moments.

[jwhughes3]

Yes exactly, but the difference between Arkansas and The Dragon was attitude.

When that happened in Ark I had never been in a pack in the twisties before, always alone or farther, but having experienced my dirt slide I rode with a completely focused attitude in NC. Always striving to keep my eyes down the road, not in front of my wheel, always planning an out for someone crossing my lane, and trying to give more than plenty of distance in front. In some of my videos it looks like I am riding alone the person in front is a whole curve ahead.


I don't expect to get caught unaware again if I "Pay Attention To The Road"



John

[madmax-im]

always look through a corner to where it exits...I play a mental game ..yellow line...white line...in terms of which way to lean

[erithanis]

A couple things come to mind about these crashes. First is a question: Shouldn't someone be responsible for having cleaned up this oil mess from the first crash? I mean, lets face it, the second wreck was caused by it. Surely the state of Tennessee has heard of "oil dry". It should definitely be a requirement on any wreck on The Dragon.

Secondly, where does one obtain training for handling a motorcycle in turns. I don't think that the m/c safety courses teach it. Is there other training such as tutorials or actual hands-on? It would be nice to have training prior to learning via "seat of the pants" especially for new riders.

MP

I bought this course for a friend's birthday a few years ago and he said it helped him feel much more comfortable. http://www.totalcontroltraining.net/HTML/FAQ.html

[ViperRon]

Have reviewed the past several posts and the vidios and some nice comments and proper observations here. The vidio segments showed a little clearer what happened in the accident. As mentioned by a few the guy was braking going into the curve and when you brake the weight heads to the front of the bike compressing the fork shocks which drastically reduces ground clearance. I can not be certian but it did appear to me as at first while breaking turning hard into the curve he scraped straightened the bike and went solid on the brakes. I do not claim to be an expert but I was taught and do not hit the brake in a turn. I will brake gong in to the point of where I start to lean and then off the brake and power threw the turn. Any braking on the front wheel brings the bike upright in a turn its just centrifigual force.

I think all agree distraction was main cause and skill may not have played all that much into this. He may have even been fatigued after a log trip. First the bike looked heavy and low to the ground not leaving much clearance. The curve was downhill and actually dipped. His position going into curve was in the part of the lane near the line not giving him full use of the lane. So being distracted on this bike being in this lane position depending on his speed, the mold may have already been set and no one may have been able to avoid going down at this point. I still have my prefferance of laying the bike down and slidding infront of me I do not want my buddy flip flopping behind me wanting to cuddle. As for the guy in the accident I hope he is ok because he may not be out of the woods. The largest potentiential for damage in this type of bounce is organs internally torn loose relocated and these things are not often detectible by Xray catscan or MRI unless they have a scan before to compare after.

Skill is a thing learned over time and varries according to the bike and situations you encounter. Its really hard to teach some things on a 2 wheel vehicle and near impossible to evaluate safely. You can not put a motorcycle into a bad position to teach feel and evaluate reaction because you would probably injure or kill someone trying to make them safe. State Police have vigerous training for motorcycle police and they have injuries minor accidents while training and they also die in accidents on the highway.

For all novice drivers here I think lessons to be learned are focus, do not be distracted or drive fatigued, sick, or intoxicated. Know your bikes capability expecially when loaded down on a trip its not the normal and acts very different. Plan ahead with an exit stratagy and position yourself for it. The rest is luck and if you don't feel lucky trust your instinct.

[natemoen]

Not so great if you leave it in the road.

True, and in my experiance it gets swept up or off the road before you leave the scene.

Try coming and riding up here, you won't find corners that don't have gravel all over in them. not that the twisted here are anything In compairison to down there though.

[trbig]

True, and in my experiance it gets swept up or off the road before you leave the scene.

Try coming and riding up here, you won't find corners that don't have gravel all over in them. not that the twisted here are anything In compairison to down there though.

Most of the fire trucks here carry kitty litter for that, but if they weren't there, we often used dirt also. In either case, the rush of trying to get the road back open to the public, with traffic jams at both ends, usually meant that the roads were opened back up with the oil absorbant still in place, letting the traffic work the absorbant back and forth and finally blowing it off.

While it seems a rush these days to lay the blame and point fingers, and I hate to hear what happened to the guy after this wreck, I see that the emergency personnel maybe SHOULD have cleaned up better just because of what/where this road is, but I also see the fault in the rider. More attentive riding most likely would have meant seeing the oil/antifreeze spot. My guess is just like the other guy, his attention was probably drawn to the cameraman and was thinking of his picture being taken, not concentrating on the oil spot in the road. While I think the photographers on the Tail is a cool thing, I also see them as a huge distraction if you let them be. I'm thinking the distraction caused by the photographers are the cause of many more wrecks than the oil spots, but nobody seems to blame them at all.

There are no guarantees out there of perfect roads. Someone could have had a boiling radiator spew antifreeze or a quart of oil fall off the back of a bike/truck at any time on any road. So.. just know that leaving whatever material was used as the absorbant on the road is a very common practice, and that for a while, whether swept or not, that spot in the road is going to be slick for some time until traffic or weather disperses it. And in actuality, leaving the absorbant on the road gives you an even better identifier and is easier to see sometimes than just a darker oil spot.

[natemoen]

Totally agree Tod! You just say it better! I especially agree with the part about tge cameraman being a big part of the problem!

[jetmechmarty]

Most of the fire trucks here carry kitty litter for that, but if they weren't there, we often used dirt also. In either case, the rush of trying to get the road back open to the public, with traffic jams at both ends, usually meant that the roads were opened back up with the oil absorbant still in place, letting the traffic work the absorbant back and forth and finally blowing it off.

While it seems a rush these days to lay the blame and point fingers, and I hate to hear what happened to the guy after this wreck, I see that the emergency personnel maybe SHOULD have cleaned up better just because of what/where this road is, but I also see the fault in the rider. More attentive riding most likely would have meant seeing the oil/antifreeze spot. My guess is just like the other guy, his attention was probably drawn to the cameraman and was thinking of his picture being taken, not concentrating on the oil spot in the road. While I think the photographers on the Tail is a cool thing, I also see them as a huge distraction if you let them be. I'm thinking the distraction caused by the photographers are the cause of many more wrecks than the oil spots, but nobody seems to blame them at all.

There are no guarantees out there of perfect roads. Someone could have had a boiling radiator spew antifreeze or a quart of oil fall off the back of a bike/truck at any time on any road. So.. just know that leaving whatever material was used as the absorbant on the road is a very common practice, and that for a while, whether swept or not, that spot in the road is going to be slick for some time until traffic or weather disperses it. And in actuality, leaving the absorbant on the road gives you an even better identifier and is easier to see sometimes than just a darker oil spot.

I believe that in the Corvette driver's account (I can't remember which forum) he said the wrecker crew left the dirt on the road. They did not sweep it up.

The 2nd accident hapenned after the photographer had left the area. He was not a factor.

All accounts say the second rider down was highly skilled. That's why it's not such a good idea to use a public highway as a race track, IMHO. On the track, that spill would have been thoroughly cleaned up. No surprises of that nature. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. (if that's possible)