Testing the waters: Replacement Exhaust Headers

[planedick]

Other problems

I have a set of Hardly muffs on my E model with stock headers and didn't have to rejet and there doesn't seem to be any loss of performance. The stock headers are double walled and single wall headers would turn blue instantly if chrome plated and there isn't paint I know of that would take that kind of heat either. I use 1400 degree paint on my stock headers and about twice a year I have to repaint them near the top anyway.

I have been to the muffler shop locally and they can bend 1.5" tubing to the radius we need and there is enough chrome shops around here to keep the prices reasonable. Teh real problem is the cleaning and polishing necessary before plating and a good plater will insist on doing a good nickle plate first.

[Rasputin]

If someone had this cool tool we would be in business!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=yigRgG_NIyU
Not sure of the price but I am willing to bet it is ouchy. Maybe Harbor frieght or Princess Auto will have aversion soon.

[natemoen]

Wow! That is awesome!

[old_skool]

TC, not to rain on your parade, but before you get everyone all excited you need to check out a few things....

While I've never bent any exhaust tubing, I've bent literally miles of conduit in my 30 years of electrical work. While not quite the same thing, the principles/techniques involved are and there's a reason few people build their own exhaust systems. I had access to some pretty nice benders, but none of them would have built a motorcycle (or car for that matter) exhaust system.

Every motorcycle exhaust I've ever seen is built using mandrel-bent tubing. A mandrel bender is an expensive, specialized tool designed to bend pipe with a minimum of deformation. These use special shoes and rollers to draw the pipe through the bending process. One design hallmark is these use two shoes (one on each side of the tube) to do the bend. The cheapest one I found was this one... http://www.restockit.com/tubing-bend...ci_sku=NCT5989 ... but I doubt this would give a smooth bend like you'll find on commercially bent pipe. For that you need precision-machined close-tolerance shoes. If you check at a muffler shop, you'd probably be looking at no better bends than what they could do. In a short-radius bend, it's extremely hard to get a smooth, lump-free bend. The factory and aftermarket manufacturers are using many-thousand-dollar benders to get the result you see.

The benders HF sells are all 'segment' benders, designed to bend heavy-wall pipe (3/16" or thicker), a little bit at a time. One big problem is they're fixed-radius (a minimum radius for a given size), so in a 1.25" or 1.5" pipe you're looking at at least a 12" minimum radius, and even that will be very tough to achieve without kinking. To bend thin-wall tube, you need a 'backing' shoe to prevent kinking. The bender design for thin-wall is completely different. With a segment bender and thin-wall tube, you'll be lucky to be able to bend more than 1-2 degrees at a time before you start kinking/crushing the pipe, and after making multiple 'shots' (bend a few degrees, then move your bend point) you'll end up with a 5' radius... at least.

I've probably tried every 'improvised' pipe bending method there is (wish I had a dollar for every time I was out on a job and didn't have the 'right' bender and had to 'make do'...), but there's simply no way to get the short-radius bends you need to fit a motorcycle exhaust without a mandrel bender, and if you don't want the bends 'lumpy', you'll need a big-bucks pro unit....

+1,000,000 on crazy steve's comment
I've bent miles and miles of exhaust tubing using both the huth and ben pearson professional exhaust benders, and even they won't bend stainless for crap. They bend the aluminized junk easy, and do a fair job with the steel, but as soon as you get too complicated a bend, they just can't cut it, the MC industry has specialized equipment, I'd look into it a little further as far as bending equipment goes. Can be done obviously, but may be cost inhibitive. Good luck

[TopCatGr58]

Well,

After some more research and such...ie. the local muffler shop does NOT have any mandrel bending capability , we've come to the realization that we'll be needing to get the PREBENT sections and cut and weld them ourselves. Along with other future welding adventures where a wire feeder just won't do...I decided to get a modest TIG unit. I know the experienced folks talked about getting QUALITY machines...but they run $1-2K +, and require 220V 1 and 3 phase power supplies, etc.!!

Due to the anticipated minimal work that will be done....not factory level production....I opted for now to go the cheaper route. After a fair amount of ONLINE research, I found what I'm hoping to be a decent quality... but yes...CHINESE Import Tig unit....110V/220V capable, and it's also a 3-1 unit....Tig/Stick and Plasma Cutter....oooooh! I know the limitation on the Plasma dependent on the amount of AMPS available in 110 vs. 220, but we're not expecting to be cutting stuff thicker than 1/8" to 3/16". If the need arises, we can get a 220V drop put in the Garage and get more juice!

The Ebay company selling this unit...many companies are selling the same unit, but just with different wrapper/cosmetic changes to the boxes... it's a model CT520Dx, and whereas the other ebay companies all only offer a 1 year warranty, this company offers a 3 year warranty....and I felt if they felt strongly enough about it's quality to offer a 3 year warranty, then it can't be a bad unit. Here's the ebay link if you want to see it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230746969831 it'll be done in < 20 hours, it's
Gianttechsales out of New Hampshire...closer to me than California. Another company is MilwaukeePower or such as well as some CA places.
An ebay search for 110V tig welder will show you several pages worth.

SO...Happy B'day to me, and another step towards some possible future fabrication capabilities for the pipes....as well as other stuff!

Speaking of OTHER STUFF.....I've noticed that many folks have commented about NOT being able to get the STRONGER 3 point case guards. Since this style/type of tubing is thicker walled stuff, I would think that my HF pipe bender will be able to handle it. I would like some input in both the type of STeel Tubing that should be used for this....I'm assuming 1" diameter. But how THICK??

We won't be able to get them CHROMED...but are talking about also setting up a Powder Coat capability..and I've seen that they offer a decent looking GREY/Silver type, as well as basic BLACK!

SO.....would you all be interested in being able to obtain some good quality 3 point case guards in other than CHROME...and I'm sure at a fairly decent price?!

T.C.

[fredintoon]

Well,

After some more research and such...ie. the local muffler shop does NOT have any mandrel bending capability , we've come to the realization that we'll be needing to get the PREBENT sections and cut and weld them ourselves. Along with other future welding adventures where a wire feeder just won't do...I decided to get a modest TIG unit. I know the experienced folks talked about getting QUALITY machines...but they run $1-2K +, and require 220V 1 and 3 phase power supplies, etc.!!

Due to the anticipated minimal work that will be done....not factory level production....I opted for now to go the cheaper route. After a fair amount of ONLINE research, I found what I'm hoping to be a decent quality... but yes...CHINESE Import Tig unit....110V/220V capable, and it's also a 3-1 unit....Tig/Stick and Plasma Cutter....oooooh! I know the limitation on the Plasma dependent on the amount of AMPS available in 110 vs. 220, but we're not expecting to be cutting stuff thicker than 1/8" to 3/16". If the need arises, we can get a 220V drop put in the Garage and get more juice!

The Ebay company selling this unit...many companies are selling the same unit, but just with different wrapper/cosmetic changes to the boxes... it's a model CT520Dx, and whereas the other ebay companies all only offer a 1 year warranty, this company offers a 3 year warranty....and I felt if they felt strongly enough about it's quality to offer a 3 year warranty, then it can't be a bad unit. Here's the ebay link if you want to see it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230746969831 it'll be done in < 20 hours, it's
Gianttechsales out of New Hampshire...closer to me than California. Another company is MilwaukeePower or such as well as some CA places.
An ebay search for 110V tig welder will show you several pages worth.

SO...Happy B'day to me, and another step towards some possible future fabrication capabilities for the pipes....as well as other stuff!

Speaking of OTHER STUFF.....I've noticed that many folks have commented about NOT being able to get the STRONGER 3 point case guards. Since this style/type of tubing is thicker walled stuff, I would think that my HF pipe bender will be able to handle it. I would like some input in both the type of STeel Tubing that should be used for this....I'm assuming 1" diameter. But how THICK??

We won't be able to get them CHROMED...but are talking about also setting up a Powder Coat capability..and I've seen that they offer a decent looking GREY/Silver type, as well as basic BLACK!

SO.....would you all be interested in being able to obtain some good quality 3 point case guards in other than CHROME...and I'm sure at a fairly decent price?!

T.C.

Hi TC,
nice unit but look at what AIN'T supplied. The Argon tank & pressure reducer.
Cost that out when you decide to bid.
BTW, a hellish strong case guard could be made from 3/4" sch 40 pipe. (1.05" o/d x 0.113" wall) and you can get sweep elbows too for a smooth weld-up. But does one need a STRONGER case guard? A sch 40 guard would keep it's shape while turning the frame into a pretzel. I'd suppose a guard that would sacrifice itself while keeping the frame straight would be what was needed.

[ddragon63]

TC I hate to be the bearer of bad news.... Those all in one machines, even brand name ones, do not do everything they are suppose to very well. They may be a decent stick welded. Where in turn they make a good scratch start tig welder. But the circuitry difference from a plasma cutter to a stick welder is the difference from a Atari 2600 and a PS3.

I hope it all works out well for you. In my 10 years in the business I've sold 1 all in one machine made by thermal arc its a stick, tig, mig combo. it isn't bad. It just doesn't do anything very well. When you put too many different spices in the chili they can counter act each other if you know what I mean?!

Might just be my jaded opinion. When a fella has access to all the good stuff he is not much of a fan of trying to make inferior stuff work.

Let me know how it works out for ya buddy

[ddragon63]

Almost forgot. Also remember without ac and high frequency a tig welder will NOT weld aluminum. This may not be a need you have @ the moment but everyone I've ever sold a small tig welder to ends up back @ my store within a year wanting to trade it in for one with ac and hi-freq. YAT

[TopCatGr58]

Hey Don,

This one is rated as a No Scratch HiFreq start, and I asked about Aluminum capacity. Many of the other sellers say NOT Suitable for Aluminum, but this seller mentioned about using Helium shielding gas vs. Argon!?

I'm not that great of a welder, but I've played with fairly thin aluminum.... diamond plate used in TOOL BOXES....had a pair of 24" long boxes, cut off the ends, then 6" OFF, and then rewelded the ends back on with a Lincoln Pr-Mig 135 wire feeder with Aluminum and 100% Argon shield gas, and was successful....NOT PRETTY....but successful! I understand that my MIG is AC, and that TIG is DC, have read that the AC is what helps keep the aluminum slag from getting impurities in it?? And the seller said that it's possibly because Helium is lighter, that it lifts up/away possible impurities during the welding process....I don't know????

I know that aluminum melts at a much lower temp, and with the wire feeder I had to have the feed speed set pretty high to keep filling the pool and not burn thru!

I will definitely be letting folks know how it performs, possibly even take some short videos and such! As stated, I don't expect to put this thing into real heavy commercial level use...so hopefully it'll perform and hold up for at least a few years, and then IF this venture continues, we can then get the $$ to invest in some REAL equipment!

Fred....I've got a gas bottle rig on my wire feeder, but I'm pretty sure I'll be needing to get a BIGGER capacity bottle anyways.
And please forgive my ignorance...I don't know what Sch 40 pipe is, is that the stuff used for home plumbing??

With the 3 point support mounted at the engine mounts, I don't see how it would cause the frame to get bent, but folks compain about the weak 2 point guards that just seem to bend into the engine cases breaking them, so that's why I thought that the stronger kind were desired so that the bike/engine could slide down the road on the guards and not destroy the cases!?

T.C.

[crazy steve]

...I don't know what Sch 40 pipe is, is that the stuff used for home plumbing??

Pipe schedule numbers refer to the wall thickness, bigger number = thicker wall. Schedule 40 is about 1/8", 80 is 1/4". When shopping for pipe, be aware that not all pipe is designed to be bent; most plumbing-type pipe doesn't bend well, electrical types do.... You might be better off looking for tubing (not the same thing as pipe).

[fredintoon]

I will definitely be letting folks know how it performs, possibly even take some short videos and such! As stated, I don't expect to put this thing into real heavy commercial level use...so hopefully it'll perform and hold up for at least a few years, and then IF this venture continues, we can then get the $$ to invest in some REAL equipment!

Fred....I've got a gas bottle rig on my wire feeder, but I'm pretty sure I'll be needing to get a BIGGER capacity bottle anyways.
And please forgive my ignorance...I don't know what Sch 40 pipe is, is that the stuff used for home plumbing??

With the 3 point support mounted at the engine mounts, I don't see how it would cause the frame to get bent, but folks complain about the weak 2 point guards that just seem to bend into the engine cases breaking them, so that's why I thought that the stronger kind were desired so that the bike/engine could slide down the road on the guards and not destroy the cases!? T.C.

Hi TC,
my experience with bargain welders is not if it stands up to steady use, it's if the arc is easy to start.
Here is a link to pipe sizes:-
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/an...pes-d_305.html
I'd say the optimum case guard is weak enough to collapse before it damages the bike frame and strong enough not to collapse and crush the cases in a less severe collision.
And yeah, that's a hard trick to pull off.

[ddragon63]

Hey TC,

A helium/argon mix IS used on Aluminum... if your welding Very HEAVY Aluminum you would want to run a 75% helium 25% Argon mix... As Helium creates more heat in the puddle due to its lighter weight than Argon. As the weld heats the gas molecules, helium, already moving faster than Argon molecules will move even faster creating heat. I have seen guys use a 75% argon 25% helium mix with light aluminum. Which again create a "hotter" weld and actually creates a more narrow bead due to the extra penetration created by the heat alone. The fault here is.... Helium, Whether in a mix or not, will be billed @ the cost of pure helium. Helium is about 2 to 3 times the cost of argon.

now the reason you have to weld Aluminum with AC current on a high Frequency is kinda complicated.... but a quick reason is...there is oxide layers in aluminum (alumina) The melting point of Aluminum is just 660C while that of aluminum oxide is over 2000C. When you use AC, you actually are constantly breaking off the oxide coating by thermal cycling. Aluminum Oxide is very brittle and breaks easily. DC current will heat the oxide but will not melt it.


Aluminum take roughly 2 times the power to weld as steel. The best way to put this power thru the dense alloy is thru an AC current. And without Hi-freq you will not be able to create a stable arc... DC straight @ about 200 amps you could probably create a puddle in 22-20 gauge aluminum where as @ 200 amps you could weld 1/4-5/16 steel... with a DC current you will not have a stable enough arc to fuse filler rod into the puddle or enough power to make that filler rod penetrate into the alloy. You may be able to "stick" some stuff together on a DC straight current but I wouldn't want to bet my safety on it, or try and hold water in it.

DC current is sharp peaks and valleys where AC current is a square wave.. Picture AC current as a bunch of table tops @ the motorcross track. AC current can maintain its peak current longer before returning back. With hi-freq now we can mash these table tops closer together and @ a higher rate of speed. your voltage down side is less creating a more stable arc @ very HI amperage.

[ddragon63]

also... there is no slag in tig welding. if your seeing slag then your looking @ oxide that didn't melt and your weld is bunk. As for the Helium lifting off impurities whoever told you that was huffing some @ the time. @ 20-30 CFH which is roughly 2-4 psi I don't care if we're in the vacuum of space... helium isn't lifting anything except itself. I could tell you whatever you want to hear also to sell you a machine I got one that does all the work for ya

If its a non scratch start then it should have a foot control which is a bonus. As for your Plasma side to it... If its a true 50a plaz you should be able to cut 5/8 steel with it.

My first "tig" welder was a 220v lincoln 225amp ac/dc stick buzz box with a scratch start tig torch. Weld steel and stainless all day long. AC side would make a puddle on aluminum and thats about it.