Elec. Question: correct me if I'm wrong...

[Kronk]

... But is this a viable way to have 6 switches controlling 1 light?!
This is part of the designing of my dream house of the future.

So right now the light is on, and if you throw any manual switch, it will turn it off... For example, if you throw switch 4, it opens that circuit, snapping relay 2 to position 2 which completes the circuit snapping relay 3 to the 1 position opening the circuit and turning the light off... It then looks like this:

We then pick another switch at random, 1, which opens that circuit snapping relay 4 to the number 2 position completing the circuit and turning the light back on:

[Kronk]

And before you are too critical of my drawing, please realize that I am not an electrician, and I do not have any experience in drafting... The switches are all obviously 3 way switches and the ones with the coil are my version of relays... Position 1 on the relay is energized, and position 2 is de-energized.. The only switches with 120V going through would be relay 3 and 4. And I would have to put a disconnect in the low voltage supply so that when we go on holidays for 3 weeks qt a time, they are not sitting there energized even though the light is off like in the second pic were relay 1, 3, and 4 are energized with the light out...

[natemoen]

Where in a house would this even be?

[DGXSER]

Honestly, if you want to go that in depth on the control of your lighting circuit, I would think a DDC system may be more worth while, possibly cost effective and save some space.

You would simly have low voltage push buttons at each switch location. Then program the DDC to track input from each button and either energize or de-energize one relay that controls line voltage to the lighting circuit as any of the designated low voltage buttons is activated.

[crazy steve]

Yep, you're wrong...

Here's how you do it:
[IMG][/IMG]

The end switches are three-ways, and the one in the center is a four-way. To add more switches, put more four-ways in series between the three ways. You can add as many as you want as long as the three-ways are at the ends of the switching circuit.

To use relays, you need momentary-contact switches and latching lighting relays to be legal.

[b.walker5]

Steve's right, Intermediate switching is the way to do it. Only difference is what he call's three way switches, we call two way. They have a common terminal into which the feed (230v ac supply here) goes and a one way and a two way switching position (or normally open and normally closed depending on who trained you).



Don's got the better idea though, if you're desinging your dream home then you want to be looking at DDC (Direct Digital Control, or PLC, Programmable Logic Control, for those who understand that term better). You could incorporate an entire home automation system into one device and configure it to do pretty much anything you want to do, from lighting, sound system, TV and security, and anything else electrical you can think of, depending on the number of IO's. Part of what I do (or used to do) was to design systems like this, write the software and install it.



Two way and Intermediate switching is fine but it's a little old skool now. Sorry Steve.

[patk12345]

Steve's solution is old school, but it's also easy to install, cheap, and bullet proof. Fast, Cheap, and Reliable. Hey Steve, you can have all three!

PLC's don't come cheap, programming is best left to a pro, and if you want to remodel down the road you may have trouble finding additional components as these systems and these companies come and go quickly.

I used to do residential electric, and I do sound system installations with a lot of remote digital controlling now. Unless you're building the house of the future with all the things in b.walker's diagram stick with the classics, ya know, sort of like our XS's.

[b.walker5]

Kronk did say he was designing his Dream Home of the Future so why not play with technology a little.

If you stick with proven names, you shouldnt have a problem with upgrading. In my experience (which is considerable in this field) most of the main players support thier products well, and backward compatibility to older models usually isnt a problem.

Mitsubishi, Allen-Bradley, Omron, Seimens and Modicon are the main players over here. There are others, for instance I primarly use an Australian made Innotech controller for HVAC projects, and a French made Crouzet controller for dedicated lighting controllers, but these are more purpose built units and not really adaptable for other uses. Can be done but not easily.

I believe in old skool 'cause I'm old (but I hate intermediate light switching) but for Dream Homes of the Future I'd do it with PLC's and create some real wizardry and intergreation.

[patk12345]

@b.walker5

Kronk did say he was designing his Dream Home of the Future so why not play with technology a little.

Ha! Well played sir, I totally missed that he actually used the words "dream home of the future".

Don't get me wrong, I do like the PLC's, they have made bar and restaurant sound installations a breeze, but I've seen them used in a lot of residential applications where the controls were far more complicated than the systems they were running. Sometimes just plain old "on" and "off" does the job.

Of course, being able to get a hot shower running, turn on the tube, brew a pot of coffee, and let the dog out before you even step out of bed is nice too.

[Jarion]

My two cents -
Almost 30 years in the Energy Mangement Control Systems Industry.

DGXSER's recommendation is how i would proceed

Many of these systems are easy, intuitive and offer infinite flexibility. (A PLC system is overkill).

One suggestion - company has been in business for quite some time and I've attended their training... very easy.... however, I've never had an opportunity to install or program this particular system.... but would not shy away from it.
http://www.homeauto.com/main.asp

[Jarion]

Walker,
What systems did you install in your earlier years?
JT

[crazy steve]

Steve's right, Intermediate switching is the way to do it. Only difference is what he call's three way switches, we call two way..

If you ask for a 'two-way' or 'intermediate' switch here, that'll get you a 'whaaa?' But yep, the same thing...

Single-point, whole-home controllers can be very cool, but they're generally over the heads of DIYers. They can easily double the cost of a residential electrical installation and need a tech for install/troubleshooting unless you're pretty 'electrically' savvy. There's still cheaper solutions to the 'problems' these address, so unless you're a 'techie', most people want it built to the KISS principle...

[b.walker5]

My two cents -
Almost 30 years in the Energy Mangement Control Systems Industry.

DGXSER's recommendation is how i would proceed

Many of these systems are easy, intuitive and offer infinite flexibility. (A PLC system is overkill).

One suggestion - company has been in business for quite some time and I've attended their training... very easy.... however, I've never had an opportunity to install or program this particular system.... but would not shy away from it.
http://www.homeauto.com/main.asp

Hi Jarion, just curious, but where do you draw the distinction between DDC and PLC ? In my mind a Programmable Logic Controlller (PLC) is Direct Digital Control (DDC). PLC's come in many shapes and sizes, with as little as one I/O to many hundreds of I/O's, depending on the number of bolt on modules, but they all share the same thing in common, they have to be programmed. Unless your talking about simple relay boxes full of latching relays where each I has it's own O, and the programming is done by the way the wiring is connected. These, to me, are just as primitive as two way switching. Effective, Simple, Cheap (by todays standards) but Old.

I have to admit, I'm a bit of a geek when it comes to this. I work with them all the time and to me they're diabolically simple, Logic is simple because it's logical, but I know many people freak out at the thought because it's someting they dont think they can understand. Completely untrue of course, but a common perception none the less.

I dont draw a distinction between PLC and DDC because in my book they are one in the same, the PLC provides the DDC by virtue of how it works.

In my early days (over 30 years ago) we just put in simple switches because in those days nobody thought about controlling multiple things from one point. Feeds went to a switch which turned on one, or maybe two things if they were looped together. Simple. If someone did want something out of the ordinary then we would use relays the size of a house, and it was usually in commercial and industrial situations.

In later years when people started getting Fancy we used two way light switching, and everybody talked about Mrs Jones down the street who could turn her hallway lights on from both ends of her passage. And when she could do it from the middle as well (intermediate switch), well then she was must have been someone important.

When homes started getting smart then we used latching relays, timers and push buttons etc that took up huge amounts of space in the switchboard and often had to be built in thier own dedicated cabinets. They were effective, complicated and expensive, but it was the Technology of the day so no one thought about better options. Now those cabinets are compressed into devices the size of a couple of smoke packets and infinately more flexible and powerful.

I've been around the traps in the Electrical Industry a long time and have seen a lot of changes, and for the most part have kept up with them and embraced them. I'm a registered Electrician in New Zealand with transferrable qualifications to most parts of the world, but I speciallised in controls, and in later years, HVAC controls. I love the simplicity and adaptability of a PLC and what one can do, I have one in my house that controls my heating, lighting, security and my overhead projector screen. http://www.innotech.com.au/Products/...at=2&prodid=93 Its a re-jigged HVAC control that has 6 Universal Inputs and 6 Digital Outs and 4 Analogue Outs, It cost me $220 and took about an hour to write and upload the program. I was renovating at the time so wiring was a breeze, and most of it was done by redefining circuits at the switchboard anyway.

Oh, and by the way, the picture in my first post is an Omni Touch system from HAI, and it most definately has got a PLC at the heart of it.

[crazy steve]

Don't get me wrong, I think these 'smart house' controllers do offer some benefits for some uses. But they don't work for all users in all places. I looked at some for my house before starting my still-continuing remodel, but there just wasn't enough usable features to make it worthwhile. And some of these 'features' do come with some caveats; the motion-sensor switches usually require movement to stay on, so if you're quietly reading a book or watching TV, they will turn the lights off on you. We installed some in some government offices, and yep, the lights would go out with people in there...

Low-voltage switching had a brief residential heyday here in the states in the late 50s/60s but never caught on well enough to ensure continued parts availability, so developed a rather bad reputation that's still lingering. I was intrigued by the fire/security features, right up until I found that the locals won't respond because of the number of false alarms they get. And who really needs off-site control of your whole house? These are a bit like too many other electronic products; tons of 'features' added because it's easy to do so with all that computing power, but most of them useful to only a handful of end users. But these are coming, but it will be the energy-management aspect that brings them into common use.

[b.walker5]

... but it will be the energy-management aspect that brings them into common use.

Agreed.