Looking for OPINIONS about Home Air Conditioners!

[TopCatGr58]

Well,

I hope this thread doesn't get moved to the HBT forum!?

We have a modest 14 year old home central AC system that's been on life support the past few years. Well, tonight it looks like the evaporator cooling fan may have burned up...that large fan in the outside unit that pulls the air thru the coils! We noticed that the inside house temps seemed a bit warmer, and the thermostat was still set on 72, but the temp said 80!

Went outside, and neither the compressor nor the large fan were running. We had it serviced last year, they had to put on a little capture bottle or something in line with the coolant line, filled it up with coolant and it seemed to work just fine. Well, put my hand on the outside case where the large fan bolts to, and it was quite warm/hot....I could keep my hand there, but was very warm! The outside breaker had NOT THROWN...was still in the ON position. I used a stick to try to spin the fan blade, it moved, but didn't easily spin around...so I think the bearings may have burned up??

Anyways, we will have the AC people look at it tomorrow. What I'm asking about is IF the unit is FRIED instead of just being able to or needing to replace just the large fan....is what BRAND of AC unit do folks have experience with, or HVAC folks know is a reliable good for the $$ worth brand/system??

IT's a 2 story house, 4 bedrooms, DEN, formal living and dining rooms, kitchen, breakfast nook, I think about 2500 sq feet. I had done some research last year, I think the one we have is a 3 ton unit. I've read about SCROLL compressors, vs. dual compressors, etc.!? I think our current system is like an 8 or 10 SEER, and they are now up to like 16 SEER, and I realize that IF we had to replace...it would be a COMPLETE system outside and INSIDE to match the lines, etc.! KACHING!

T.C.

[DGXSER]

TC, first thing to check is the capacitor on the system. It is a can looking thing mounted in the control panel. When they go out the top will mushroom out, bulge. Typically if both are not running, that will be the cause.

As to replacement units, Rheem makes excellent home units. I deal primarily with commercial systems. We use Trane, Carrier, Lennox, and York. Every engineer has their own preferences, but any of these are considered to be good units. Carrier also sells a residential brand called Bryant. They are decent. I have an Armstrong unit. They work really well as far as capacity. Mine was a scratch and dent without warranty and lost the compressor in three years. Hopefully this one will last MUCH longer.

May be easier if you get a few prices on units and let us know what brands your considering and we can give you some feedback on those. There are 100 residential brands out there, some like Bryant are the same as name commercial brands, others are junk.

For AC only at that sq footage a 3 ton unit is about right. IIRC, code now requires a minimum of 14 SEER for residential units. Basically, the higher the SEER the bigger the condensing coil is and the bigger the outside unit will be. For sure your new unit will almost double the size of the existing no matter what.

[crazy steve]

Well, 14 years is actually pretty good service for a residential AC unit, or is it a heat pump? I don't think I would invest any repair money into it at this point.

As far as replacing, it may not be as bad as you think. While the units have gotten better, there are retrofit units out there that won't require tearing the whole house apart. These may not offer the full benefits that the newer ones do, but would still be an improvement. Unless of course your local building energy codes are such that you can't do that; it would pay to find out.

Brands? There are 'local favorites', but out in the NW, Carrier and Lennox seem to be the two biggies. I haven't heard anything bad about either.

Good luck!

'78E original owner

[tinman905]

AC's have come a long way in 14 yrs, If it's in your budget save yourself a service call and tell them to give you a quote on new system. They will want to fix it (more money) for them and with saving the cost of a repair and the savings in your electrical bill a new AC will almost pay for it's self over a short time.

[b.walker5]

Based on your description I think your diagnosis is correct, however the purpose of the outdoor fan will change depending on what mode your in. If you have a heat pump then when in cooling it is the condensor fan, and while in heating it will be the evaporator fan. When changing from heating to cooling a 4 way valve changes the direction of refrigerant flow, and the function of the coils. If you only have AC then the outdoor fan is the condensor fan, and the indoor fan is the evap fan.

DGXSER is correct, check your capacitor, It needs this to start but if the fan is seizing, or failing to start for any other reason, and the compressor starts up in cooling then the refrigerant pressure will rise rapidly due to lack of condensing in the outdoor coil and the high pressure protection will trip. Some HP switches are manual reset and the compressor wont start again until reset, but some are auto reset and once the pressure falls again the compressor will restart, and trip again if the fan still isnt running. This short cycling on the high pressure switch can, and does, lead to compressor failure resulting in costly repairs.

Your description of the last repair may have been a new liquid line filter/dryer that was replaced. Is it in line in the small pipe leading to the indoor unit? or was it an upright cannister installed inside the outdoor unit. If the latter then it may be a suction accumulator designed to trap any remaining liquid refrigerant in the suction line before it gets to the compressor. As you know, liquid doesnt compress, and can cause catastrophic internal damage.

We install a lot of Carrier products in commercial applications, but in residential don't overlook some of the Japanese product. Carrier AHI and Toshiba got into bed together some years back and created some world class products. http://www.toshiba-aircon.jp/products/sdi/lineup.htm The company I work for are agents for both and I installed a Toshiba RAV-SP1404 (14kw/5hp) split ducted system in my house. They are extremely efficient, reliable and quiet. A good friend of mine had me install a Carrier 11kw system in his house and it works extremely well also. Fujitsu and Mistsubishi are also good products, as are Trane and Lennox.

Scroll compressors are good, digital scrolls are better. Rotary's are good, twin Rotary's are better. Reciprocating are a little old school now but work okay just the same. Try to avoid fixed speed compressors and opt for Inverter control instead. This will ensure that you are optimising and only using the energy ($$$) required to heat/cool the space to match the conditions at the time.

The general rule is stick to mainstream brands and you generally wont go wrong. If there is a problem the back up should be okay. We have an issue here at the moment with a lot of cheap chinese DIY install crap being dumped on the market by The Warehouse and K-Mart (equivalent to your walmart) and theres no backup if something goes wrong. I get calls every day from some old granny who had a Kaiser (or some other obscure brand) installed by a friend of a friend and it's not doing the job. We try to help but if they've blown a pc board or something theres nothing we can do and we get left looking like the bad guys.

This is my business so if I can help with advice please feel free to ask.

BTW, the patch arrived today and I am well pleased. Thanks.

[RODS454]

Hvac

Topcat I sent you a PM. Give me a call this is what I do for a living.
Thanks, RODS454

[madmax-im]

TC I have had very good luck with Lennox...We had the original system operating in my NJ home for 31 years! Yes more than twice the normal lifespan of a condensor unit. Dont think today's systems are built to last that long but we had some incredible luck with Lennox.

[DGXSER]

BNE could also be that in NJ it will run about half as much as some lower states. IT like, heat pumps have half the life span of an AC system because they run twice as much if not more.

[foreda]

Good unit

If your unit is 14 years old, that's not bad service. Pretty much anything on the market is fairly reliable, just depends on what you want to spend or can afford. You will want to go with a unit with a high SEER rating and make sure whatever you buy has a Copeland or Tecumseh compressor. I have had good service from York brand and I can buy factory direct since my brother was a dealer. My $.02

[madmax-im]

BNE could also be that in NJ it will run about half as much as some lower states. IT like, heat pumps have half the life span of an AC system because they run twice as much if not more.

No doubt about that If we were further south or west then I'm sure it would have been a different story..

[COOL TOM]

Ac

Don't know who made mine but the name on it is Sunbeam. Was installed in 1972 and is still working good today. I am also looking to put in a new one. Just to save energy and MONEY. So will be looking at this thread.

[TopCatGr58]

4 SLICE TOASTER for DGXser!

Well, the service folks came today, and it WAS the CAPACITOR, they replaced it/board...don't know exactly what because I wasn't here, just SWMBO, but it's working again for ONLY $300.00! They checked the rest of the unit out and said it's working FINE! YES it is a HEATPUMP, as well as AC, and also an EMERGENCY GAS HEAT system/furnace since our temps can go below the 40 degree heatpump efficiency threshhold!!

So...perhaps we'll be able to milk another years service from it! We were quoted some $8k replacement cost, don't recall what brand, but the company that quoted it handles YORK and Trane, perhaps other brands as well. I'm thinking that the price would be a TOTAL replacement of the system components, both outside and inside!

The old system is an old Janitrol/GOODMAN 10 SEER 3 ton system.
It's my understanding that ALL components...the inside evaporator coils would need to be replaced to attain the maximum SEER rating that it would be rated at...vs. trying to use an old coil system. And because it's also a GAS FURNACE, it raises the $$ factor I reckon!? SO... you can see why we are trying to NURSE this thing along as long as we can before we have to FINANCE the replacement!

The house also will be needing a new roof soon, but that's another THREAD!

Thanks to all of you experienced HVAC folks for your informed opinions!

T.C.

[RODS454]

Hvac

PM sent.
RODS454

[XJOK2PLAY]

Hey, TC...
Just now ran across this thread. Glad to hear you got it going again!

Funny.... I was going to suggest a Goodman to you!
I have a good friend that's an HVAC man here in town.
That's the brand he installs.
It's also the main brand that Locke Supply carries.
Wasn't sure if you have any of those though in your neck of the woods.
That's also my electrical wholesaler, as well.
They're pretty common in Okla.

Good you may not have to replace it just yet, though!
Bob

[DGXSER]

If I had gas available I'd do the same thing, best efficiency system going (cost wise anyway). I hate to tell you what the capacitor cost them (I bought one for mine wholesale at $13). But that is half the cost of a compressor wholesale.

When replacing the condensing unit (outside unit with compressor in it), the coils have to be matched so they require replacement of the evaporator (inside) coil especially on a heat pump unit. No one will typically replace the inside coil without replacing the entire unit. ( it is good to have a buddy that sells wholesale equipment, I did just replace the inside coil with the condensing unit and kept my inside unit) The capcity is based upon air flow which is based upon the fans capabilities and the unit design and such. Gas fired unit will add cost over simple electric heat backup, but you would also gain some good efficiency on the gas side as well with a new unit. Look into the variable speed fan sytems when you look into replacing the system as well. ALOT of efficiency to be had there. Most heatpumps today can work relatively well down to about 25 deg F, but I still hate them living this far North.

Glad they were able to fix your unit, by the time it quits again, technology will have changed enough all of this will be meaningless anyway.