Cage issue

[motoman]

Several things, some with questions you had and others pertaining to some of the input, which was mostly good. First, a good thing you replaced the pump, no wasted time/cost there. Second, your radiator supplier can tell you what reccomended thermostat to use and your new radiator will NOT be warrenteed unless thermostat is replaced with new and the correct reccomended temp. What XSokie stated IS correct. The factory gauges are close at best, so don't go totally by them. Your original rad. IS a two core(automotive aplications no such thing as a one core). If you have a local supplier for the $130, I was in the ball-park for cost. Just for grins, ask what the difference in cost would be for a three core.....may surprise you, some times the cost is minor for the added benifit in high temps and stop-and go traffic. For warranty and service don't be cheap going the order route on the net. Your gonna pay in the end sooner or later! Actually, your having a fairly cheap fix for a couple bills total as your time is free, plus you've learned something(sounds like the XS scenario). Rule of thumb pretty much with automotive cooling systems is if at idle, temp rises....start moving recieving air flow it drops to almost normal= restricted cooling system. Temp rises quickly stopped and keeps rising, then in motion drops even way below normal operating temp= stuck OPEN thermostat. And of course, a stuck CLOSED thermostat builds pressure in system untill radiator cap releases that pressure making a mess under hood, on windshield, etc. Another item you WILL have to replace is the radiator cap for same reason as thermostat....radiator warranty. New rad., thermastat,coolant mixed 50/50, do NOT pour in straight, will cause electrolyses even thought water is added to rad., and in this case get that front-end up more vertical than your drive to bleed off air as you add coolant, then top off plastic res. to HOT level. Next morning after its cooled off system will have drawed in cooant from resivoir so top it back off to COLD level and just check that level cold a couple times afer operation. It will even run better and smoother for you, (ref. to XSokie's input). Let us know how it all worked out for you!

[DGXSER]

I can go along with all of it until you got to this point.

do NOT pour in straight, will cause electrolyses even thought water is added to rad

A very small piece of the total great info written, but way wrong, cannot be. First of all, the glycol has the inhibitors in it to prevent corrosion. The inhibitors are selected specifically for the qapplication and the metals that will be present in the system. This is why you need Automotive glycol for auto engines made of iron/steel and aluminum. And you need HVAC grade glycol (NOT automotive) for HVAC systems made of steel and copper. Secondly, electrolysis or galvanic corrosion is caused by having two dissimilar metals in contact with each other (as in not seperated by say a rubber radiator hose) especially when you put a fluid accross them. Mixing or not of your glycol will not change this, though the inhibitors in the glycol will slow it down some.

Now, I do agree you want to mix them prior to putting them in and I agree that you will see an increase in the corrosion if you do not. But not from electrolysis, but because glycol and water will not neccesarily mix by themselves if you pour them in seperately. It will take some time, at first you will have slugs of glycol being chased by slugs of water until they have been thorugh the pump enough to mix. But I have seen this after years of service in HVAC systems. And the water without the glycol is more corrosive.

[XSokieSPECIAL]

What XSokie stated IS correct.

Thanks motoman..........................I guess I have learned something in 30 years of being in the automotive repair buisiness.

I agree buying the radiator locally is the way to go. However, if this problem didn't show up until after you replaced the w/p and thermostat I would make certain that you didn't get a bad thermostat first. Not very likely it's the w/p.

It could be as simple as that, and a LOT cheaper than a radiator.

As far as the antifreeze goes,without getting into chemical equations and scientific explanations, there are basically three kinds......green....orange....and yellow. Chrysler uses the yellow and it will mix fine with the other two but don't mix the orange and green or it turns EXTREMELY corrosive and eats stuff up.

[dbeardslee]

The problem showed up after putting Bars Leak in the system. After I put the water pump on, it was running fine with just water and the flush in it, but when I put the antifreeze and Bars Leak in, the fun began. I changed the thermostat after that, and I can see when it opens on the temperature gauge. Problem is, after it opens it never closes again . After seeing all the kitty litter in the bottom of the drain pan, and after XSokie's reassurance that there's no restriction in the block, I'm feeling better about the radiator being the problem. One other thing I didn't mention (looks like it's come clean time ), this is the first time in 10 years I've bothered to flush the system . I've been draining it by removing the lower heater hose as I couldn't get any flow through the petcock (not to mention what a PITA it is to get to it). I'm thinkin' that radiator has a bunch of something in the bottom of it preventing water from flowing out the petcock. Since it was that way before the Bars Leak, I'm guessing it's rust in the bottom of the radiator blocking the petcock.

automotive aplications no such thing as a one core

The ones I've been looking at are described as 'one row', although I've seen one row and two row descriptions on the same page for the same radiator. The three row radiators are about twice the money. I've got the towing package with the transmission cooler and the auxiliary fan, and it's always worked well (until recently), so I'll probably install the same type radiator. I have to admit though, I'm sorely tempted to buy a $53 radiator. Course with $30 shipping, it's only about $40 less than my local Advance Autoparts. The one on the internet is a 'Pro Radiator', and the one at Advance (and other big local chains) is a 'Rad Radiator'. Anybody have any experience with either of these brands?

And lest I forget my manners - Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys - I believe you have set me on the right track. Normally I wouldn't go to a motorcycle site for advice on a car, but I knew we had some good cage mechanics running around here. Thanks again, fellas.

[motoman]

Your most welcome dbeardslee!

DGXSER, I gave this info as I had been to work sponsered classes pertaining this many years ago, and personnally seen results of not pre-mixing. Doesn't ALWAYS happen but chances of it happening are greater than not happening. Therefore the risk isn't worth the chance. In this case we are BOTH correct even though your two paragraphs contradicted each other. End result could be excessive corrosion created, and yes the tech.term IS
electrolisyes(spelling may suck tho) for this phenomina.

XSokie, again absolutely correct. Might I add to that a local professional radiator shop here explained to me with all the chemical terms that I don't wanna repeat as I would likely get confused explaining, basiclly said the orange/red dyed coolant as an "extended" use product is BS as it is highly corrosive in any system and becomes more so the longer it is in there. So, with that I stick with using good ole' glycol based product even if system originally had a reccomended extended use product in it. Was also told by them in doing this there would be no issue of excessive corrosion other than what would be considered normal. Also going back with new cooling sysem components use distilled water for mix if possible. Can attest to longgivity and a clean durable cooling system by doing this.

[dbeardslee]

OK, so let me ask you guys this - my manual recommends a 50-70% mix of antifreeze to water. Since I can never get all the water out of the block after a flush, I fill it back up with straight antifreeze in an effort to get that 50-70%. The cooling system capacity is 15 quarts, and I usually wind up adding right around 2 gallons to fill the system - slightly more than a 50/50 mix. Then I check it with my little prestone tester just to make sure I've got enough in there. I know I could drain the block too, but the way the cast iron on this jeep likes to rust, I'm pretty sure I'd have to do an impersonation of hercules to get it out.

When I replace the radiator, I'm just going replace whatever I lose, so what's in the block will stay. This time I think I'll be OK just using the premixed stuff, but what about the next time the system is flushed (and yes, I won't wait 10 years to do it again )? If I just put 50/50 in I'd wind up with a 25% mix.

And one more question - I just changed this darn stuff at $10 a gallon, not to mention the PITA getting rid of the old stuff is turning out to be. What's the thoughts on capturing it and reusing it?

[DGXSER]

DGXSER, I gave this info as I had been to work sponsered classes pertaining this many years ago, and personnally seen results of not pre-mixing. Doesn't ALWAYS happen but chances of it happening are greater than not happening. Therefore the risk isn't worth the chance. In this case we are BOTH correct even though your two paragraphs contradicted each other. End result could be excessive corrosion created, and yes the tech.term IS electrolisyes(spelling may suck tho) for this phenomina.

Sorry if it came across like an AH. Not intended, but the engineer in me takes over some times. Not sure I see where they contradicted though. Electrolysis requires an electric current to be present, which becomes present when two dissimmilar metals are connected and a conducting fluid is present. Corrosion does not require the electrical current. It is a natural chemical reaction.

Doug,
As stated, I recommend premix because the stuff just does not mix easily on its own. distilled or even deionized water is recommended. 50-70% mix is pretty strong. Glycol has a lower heat transfer rating than water and is also a higher visocity so you lose out two ways with a higher mix. Lower heat transfer and it moves slower.

If it were me on re-using, of course it is less preferable, but i'd look over what comes out and strain it good if I were going to reuse it.

[motoman]

That mix choice is fine. Easiest way if your at home would be to fill(not worry too much bout the air-lock issue at this point), Since I think you said it does have a rad. cap, fill with water then run vehicle a few minutes. Shut down and pull lower hose off rad., re-start and let pump push any water out. Hose back on and re-peat. That should get most all of any foreign matter that may be left. Then put lower hose back on proceding with the fill/bleed method I suggested. I know that the block plug even though fairly easy to get to can be a real PITA to remove. If by chance you get it loose do the same fill with water only with that plug out and run with hose in radiator turned on bout the same rate as water is coming out of block drain. That will remove any of the contaminents that may be left in system. Since your at home I presume, maybe someone has a better solution, but seemed to always work for me, and is easy to do.

[jwhughes3]

potato

Back in my off roading days I remember keeping a potato on hand in case of a blown core - you can push the potato into the broken area to keep it sealed and then needlenose plier the broken row over onto itself - guarantees replacement upon return home but if ur in the middle of the desert....

I never heard good things about BarsLeak so I never used it.

John in San Antonio

[motoman]

No offense taken DGXSER! Was aware of your backround from some older threads. You do come up with some interesting thoughts to chew on though. Having tolerated some very arrogant people(don't think your one by any stretch) in engineering having been employed with CDOT for some 31yrs. fully aware of and was not offended. Hope you didn't mind me biting back cause I somewhat enjoy knowing "real world" situations and terms WILL trump "engineer syndrome" almost every time.......and that comes from having alot of practice and experience too. All in good fun and even an occassional learning session for me anyway. Wasn't a wasted day, and learned that potatoes not only are good for you to eat, but may help you not be late for dinner!

[dbeardslee]

Well, I got an e-mail from my local radiator shop today. Evidently the radiators with the plastic tanks and aluminum core are cost prohibitive to recore - $300! Looks like it's going to be a brand new one. Tomorrow I'm going to rip into it like a monkey on a cupcake. I'll let you know the results.

[dbeardslee]

After action report

So I just got through installing a new radiator, and to all you who kept pushing me towards the radiator as the problem I have one thing to say - thanks - looks like you were right . I wound up buying a Ready-Rad Radiator from my local O'Reilly for $129 plus tax - plastic tanks and aluminum core. It sounded like a good idea to buy locally in case I wanted to go raise h$!! later. It's not identical to the one that came off, but it's pretty darn close. I got checking around, and they claim lineage with Modine, so I thought "what the heck." I think they're like Modine's fifth nephew three or four times removed - it's pretty convoluted. Anyway, I figured some Modine is better than none . And besides, O'Reilly's is closest . I haven't changed out the thermostat yet, but it's only running about 5-10 degrees cooler than it used to - about 190 degrees by the gauge. The heater gets warm, but only really warm when you rev the motor a bit - I guess it could be the thermostat doing that, but I'm thinking the heater core didn't like that Bars Leak any better than the radiator did.

Anyway, that's a big relief, and I appreciate all the help. Now it's on to compressors, accumulators, and orifice tubes. So who's good at air conditioning ?

[XSokieSPECIAL]

So I just got through installing a new radiator, and to all you who kept pushing me towards the radiator as the problem I have one thing to say - thanks - looks like you were right . I wound up buying a Ready-Rad Radiator from my local O'Reilly for $129 plus tax - plastic tanks and aluminum core. It sounded like a good idea to buy locally in case I wanted to go raise h$!! later. It's not identical to the one that came off, but it's pretty darn close. I got checking around, and they claim lineage with Modine, so I thought "what the heck." I think they're like Modine's fifth nephew three or four times removed - it's pretty convoluted. Anyway, I figured some Modine is better than none . And besides, O'Reilly's is closest . I haven't changed out the thermostat yet, but it's only running about 5-10 degrees cooler than it used to - about 190 degrees by the gauge. The heater gets warm, but only really warm when you rev the motor a bit - I guess it could be the thermostat doing that, but I'm thinking the heater core didn't like that Bars Leak any better than the radiator did.

Anyway, that's a big relief, and I appreciate all the help. Now it's on to compressors, accumulators, and orifice tubes. So who's good at air conditioning ?

Glad to hear your getting to a "good place" with this.

Unhook your heater hoses and flush the heater core with a garden hose BACKWARDS of normal flow and that should ( I hope ) get rid of most of the crap in there. The hose that goes to the head BEHIND the thermostat is the pressure hose, but flush it both ways....damn sure won't hurt.

What's the issue with your AC ?

[dbeardslee]

I'll try that on the heater core. On the AC when I put a manifold gauge on it, it'll pump the high pressure side up until the compressor kicks off, pressure drops back down, compressor kicks back on and it repeats. It's been a while since I looked at it, but IIRC the low pressure side was staying pretty constant. I was thinking about replacing the accumulator and the orifice tube, vacuuming the system, and recharging it. Those seemed like the most likely items to make it act like it is, but I'm no a/c expert. Never had an air conditioning system apart before, and you professional mechanics always make it sound like things have to be surgically clean to function - scares the crap out of us mere mortals . Is it one of those things where you have to be careful with the parts, or do you actually have to clean them with something? Or is it just that you have to make sure of a good vacuum of sufficient strength before recharging? Probably sounds like a dumb question, but I just don't know. Any special tools needed besides a manifold gauge and a vacuum pump? And how powerful of a vacuum do you really need?

[XSokieSPECIAL]

The first thing to try is have it evacuated (pull a vacuum for at LEAST 30 minutes) and recharged with the proper amount of R134A.

It sounds like it may be overcharged or full of air from someone trying to "add " refrigerant.

Have it done by someone with the right equipment and know-how.

Unfortunatly that will probably run you abou $150 but cold air IS expensive.