Cage issue

[dbeardslee]

Have you ever outsmarted yourself while working on your car? I had a water pump go out on my cherokee recently, so I replaced it. When I was refilling the system, I thought I would put some extra protection in and added a can of Bars Leak. What a mistake that was! I think it's got some of the passages in the motor plugged up cause it's running about 30 degrees hotter than normal - about 225 degrees. I used some prestone radiator flush on it the other day, and then back flushed it. I think I got most of the Bars Leak out, but evidently not all of it - still running around 225 - and that's with a 15 degree cooler thermostat installed. So my question is this - does anyone know a good way to get that crap out of a motor? Is there a more aggressive radiator flush, or a different technique for flushing? This thing's really starting to bug me, and with the hot weather coming on I figure I better get it solved now.

[XJ Rob]

There use to be a great flush made by dupont. It came in a silver can and was a 2 part flush. Although you can't buy it in stores any more you might be able to find it at flea markets. I would never ever put ANYTHING in a radiator. Even if it was leaking. The cores are so small in the heater core that if it did stop the leak it would for sure plug the heater core.
Prestone has a flush you can put in and drive for a while and then back-flush. It might work. I'm not fond of any of the new environmentally safe flushes available today. Not that I want to destroy the earth but sometimes you just need something a little stronger. IMO.

[dbeardslee]

I would never ever put ANYTHING in a radiator.

The last time I used that stuff was probably 30 years ago in a '65 ford fairlane. The fairlane liked it - the cherokee doesn't. I don't know if the formula changed, or if the jeep just has smaller orifices in the motor. Whatever it was, that's the last time I put anything other than antifreeze and distilled water in my radiator. I used prestone super flush, and ran the motor for about 1/2 hour prior to back flushing. Do you have a product name for the dupont flush - dupont #7 per chance?

Ever tried vinegar? I read something on another site that recommended filling the system with vinegar, letting it set over night, flushing with a baking soda solution to neutralize the acid in the vinegar, and refilling.

And one note on the environment. I'm always careful with the chemicals I use, and particularly with antifreeze. The thing that bugs me is, none of the local autoparts stores take the old stuff for disposal. I even tried calling the EPA - what a waste of a dime that was. All I got was a recorded message and a promise to call me back sometime before they retire - our federal tax dollars at work . Anyway, I've got about 10 gallons of that stuff out in the mancave right now. Anyone know anyone who takes it?

[motoman]

For future reference, if in an emergency for a radiator leak dump a liberal amout of pepper in system. It will follow coolant to leak, swell up some and either work or the leak is to large a diameter to seal anyway no matter what you use. Plus after leak is properly fixed will just wash out. A question I have is what year it is and does it have a closed system(no radiator cap on radiator) If it is a closed system unless you have a vacuum pump to evacuate the system it WILL have an air lock in it and coolant won't be where it is supposed to be(in layman terms) If you don't have a cooling system evacuation pump and it is the inline six cylinder, jack up the rear of vehicle till front bumper almost touches, remove the temp sending unit at top rear of head and then fill system untill a solid stream CONTINUES to flow out that opening, re-install sending unit BEFORE lowering vehicle. Had this happen on a Cherokee I owned and wasn't evacuated of air in system and #3&#4 cyl ened up with collapsed rings from the void created and lacking coolant flow around these cylinders. If it is the little V-8 version and a closed system the same procedure needs to be done. Also, hoped you replaced the thermostat with new(195degree) IIRC. Report back what type system you have!

[motoman]

Just an added note, this procedure evacuating cooling system MUST be followed for any vehicle with a closed system, and there is alot of them set up this way more so than used to be. So BEWARE if your system has no radiator cap and a fill tank above the system. Our '03 Ford Escape is just one example of this set-up......but it does have a screamin' Yamaha V-6(3.0), aluminum block, heads, and a self- adjusted cam chain provided by oil pressure.......hmmm.

[dbeardslee]

It's a 2000 straight six with the water temperature sending unit on top of the thermostat housing at the front of the motor. My driveway is pretty steep, and I set it with the front-end up, and burp the system through the sending unit hole. It does have a radiator cap, but they're still notorious for getting air in the system. The system wasn't leaking - I put the Bars Leak in as a preemptive strike - hence the outsmarting myself line . I did replace the thermostat, but I put a 180 degree in trying to cool it down.

[COOL TOM]

old antifreeze

Any oil change place like Speed Lube or such name that does oil changes should take the old antifreeze. And yes it sounds like you have a air lock in motor.

[dbeardslee]

When I installed the back flush connector, I pulled the upper heater hose, put the 'T' connector in the end of it, put about a 12" piece of heater hose on the end of that, and connected it to the thermostat housing. That gave me a hose I could lift about 12" above the engine, and during the process I burped it through the garden hose connector on the 'T' fitting while holding it up above the motor. It was still exhibiting the same symptoms. I'm thinking you're right about an air lock, but I'm afraid a plugged passage may be the culprit.

I'll try the local quick lube places for the antifreeze - thanks for the heads-up.

[motoman]

180degree will NOT necessarrily cool it down quicker, just open sooner and constant flow if restricted somewhat will not change problem. Other thing you might check is the direction of pump rotation varied with application and year of the inline six(4.0). Some were clockwise and some were counterclockwise specificly associated with the inline 4.0. That depended on pulley/serpintine belt configuration. Wierd but true on these. Just trying to aleviate the obvious here. With the minimum 2core which most of these had even with A/C even with a minimal core restriction would create an issue trying to displace the heat. Usually with the cores being minimal thickness at best they are not worth the expense of removing and having cooked and rodded out. Usually will end up leaking from resulting thinning of coolant flow cores. If you plan on keeping and want system to work correctly, a new rad. will run you under $150 for that application. Anything close to $200 I would question the cost based on personnal experience. If heater core got somewhat restricted due to the "whoops", it will NOT affect the basic cooling systems ability to work properly. You may notice a drop with the heaters temp. as flow in heater core may be a bit reduced, but it will NOT affect rest of cooling system for engine cooling purposes. Always interesting and would like to hear the results of your findings that resolve the issue. and yes, a somewhat restricted radiator WILL have a noticable effect on the efficientcy of these newer MINIMAL systems. They are designed to work fine olny if they are non restricted as they come new. Too many shortcuts etc.....nevermind, don't get me started.....lol.

[dbeardslee]

I remember looking at the rotation when I did the water pump, but now I don't remember what it was. Seems to me like it's supposed to run counter clockwise. I'll take another look, just to make sure. Here's another little tidbit - I just emptied my drain pan, and there were quite a few relatively large rust flakes in it. The problem I was originally having with it was weird too - it would start getting hot at idle, but if I raised the rpms to 2k, it would cool back down. I wasn't getting any coolant loss, but the water pump seemed like the offending unit, so I changed it. I was amazed to find 4 of the 5 blades completely corroded off. Maybe that was their remains I was seeing in the bottom of my drain pan. I did compare what was left of the 'fan' to the new one, and the blades were all oriented the same way. I really didn't like seeing those big rust flakes - looked like brown kitty litter. Now I'm wondering how much more of that stuff is still in there.

So you're thinking the restriction is more likely in the radiator itself, rather than in the block? What are your thoughts on having it recored as opposed to a new one?

[jmnjrpa]

Careful

With the flush. I had an aluminum head that developed a hole in it from flush. Had to replace it.

[dbeardslee]

That would definitely be a bummer. I did a little checking on the dupont #7. Evidently it was discontinued for two reasons - environmental concerns and also because it evidently does bad things to aluminum parts. I'm seriously considering flushing it with vinegar and then a baking soda solution. Any thoughts?

I've also got a call into my local radiator shop. They're supposed to e-mail me monday with a price on a recore. I think the one that's in it is just a 1 core, and replacements seem to be about $129, so we'll see what the difference is.

[XJ Rob]

Do you have a product name for the dupont flush - dupont #7 per chance?

As a matter of fact it was. Dupont #7 flush

[XSokieSPECIAL]

Doug......

What year is your Cherokee?

There is no passages inside a 4.0 jeep engine that could be plugged by stop leak. However, it could cause a problem in an older radiator with some build up in it.

FYI....The newer engines run at about 210-225 anyway. If you put a cooler thermostat in them they won't heat up enough for your PCM to send the fuel injection system into closed loop mode and you'll get lousy fuel mileage.

The computer will think the engine is not warmed up to running temperature and dump in extra fuel all the time.

Put in the thermostat it calls for OEM.

[dbeardslee]

It's a 2000. I bought it new, and it's always run around 205 degrees. When it gets up around 215, the auxiliary fan comes on. The way it's been running, the aux fan is on all the time. Thanks for the info on the engine passages - did you hear the big sigh of relief . Looks like a new radiator is in my future, and I'll take your advice on the thermostat. The last thing I need with this thing is worse mileage. For such a little truck it sure does like to guzzle.

Anybody know anything about pro radiator on ebay? $53.25 sounds like a pretty good price.