Anyone believe ethonol damages fuel systems?

[nubee]

I do

The FAA cites numerous reasons alcohol and airplanes do not mix. Alcohol:

* Adversely affects the volatility of auto gasoline, which could cause vapor lock.
* Is corrosive and not compatible with rubber seals and other materials used in aircraft, which could lead to fuel system deterioration and malfunction.
* Is subject to phase separation, which happens when the fuel cools as an aircraft climbs to higher altitudes. When the alcohol separates from the gasoline, it may carry water that has been held in solution and that cannot be handled by the sediment bowl.
* Reduces the energy content of fuel. Methanol has approximately 55 percent of the energy content of gasoline, ethanol 73 percent. More alcohol equals reduced range.

From EAA website

The Great Ethanol Scam
Not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers

By Ed Wallace

Here is a test or you can just use a glass jar.
http://www.aviationfuel.org/autogas/test_kit.asp

[Mr. Schweer]

DEFINANTLY.

Years ago, when cal was first getting a new reformulated summer blend with MORE ethanol, I had filled up my '76 Trans-Am. The engine was completely stock at that time, 8.7:1 compression, 180hp and about 80K. After about 10 miles, I blew a head gasket. I changed out JUST that one gasket. Didn't need to do anything else. About 50 miles after that, it blew out the other head gasket!!
Don't know exactly why. But it did. Only thing that was different was the 'new' Kommufornia fuel so I am inclined to conclude it was the culpret.

I will say right now that I could be way off.

[Silent]

It's da gubment tryin to git them old palootin cars offa da roads

[Ivan]

Don't use the FAA as a source, since it isn't all that hard to get an experimental category certification that will allow almost any recip powered aircraft to legally use auto fuel. My dad's tripacer was certified, when I was a kid, and I distinctly remember him fueling out of the tank at my grand dad's farm.

I think on the tripacer, the valves and seats had to be replaced with hardened versions, to be OK with the FAA.

Also, if alcohol is so terrible, why then do drag racers use it?

One last thing... a GM small block that blows head gaskets for no apparent reason? I've never heard of such a thing. well, ok I have. on a very rare occasion. ok, not all that rare. well, TBH, it is actually pretty common. even on propane...

[Crazcnuk]

Airplane fuel is just high grade car fuel, about the same as Premium pump fuel with a couple extra additives.

"Also, if alcohol is so terrible, why then do drag racers use it?"

Because, if you don't mind burning up to 3x as much per pass you can create more horsepower. Alcohols are partially self-oxygenating fuels, meaning you can burn more in the same volume of air.

It used to work something like this, If your engine is designed to handle the power:

a 1,000hp gasoline engine would produce ~2500hp on alcohol at 1/3 the fuel economy, or with nitro methane ~5000hp at 1/10 the fuel economy.

So properly built, our XS's would run approximately 190hp at 15-20mpg on pure alcohol. If you remember when F1 went to alcohol for a few years, it took art least 2 fill-ups per race, sometimes 3 depending on strategy. With gas, they can run a whole race on one tank, so the rules force them to make at least one stop, whether they need fuel or not.

You also have to remember that longevity of parts in an alcohol dragster is not really an issue. The engine gets rebuilt fairly often, but even then ALL the parts that come in contact with alcohol are specially set up for alcohol.

I've always wanted to convert my 3hp gas lawnmower to alcohol, but the alcohol carbs are pricey.

[Mr. Schweer]

Don't use the FAA as a source, since it isn't all that hard to get an experimental category certification that will allow almost any recip powered aircraft to legally use auto fuel. My dad's tripacer was certified, when I was a kid, and I distinctly remember him fueling out of the tank at my grand dad's farm.

I think on the tripacer, the valves and seats had to be replaced with hardened versions, to be OK with the FAA.

Also, if alcohol is so terrible, why then do drag racers use it?

One last thing... a GM small block that blows head gaskets for no apparent reason? I've never heard of such a thing. well, ok I have. on a very rare occasion. ok, not all that rare. well, TBH, it is actually pretty common. even on propane...

Uh, I said TRANS-AM...not CAMARO. Trans-Am's in '76 had traditional PONTIAC engines. Not small-block chevy's. And no, it's not common on low mileage pontiacs.
BTW, I did say that I wasn't sure that was the cause, but it certainly was suspicious. Having owned about 40 vintage Pontiac's, I'd never had that issue before.

[Mr. Schweer]

DUH....I just looked at the OP's topic....he said FUEL SYSTEM. No, I don't think ethanol is bad for fuel systems. At least not for at least a couple hundred thousand miles.

[xswilly]

when i put my bike up for the winter, i always mix stabol with the gas

in the spring, when i fire it up for the first time, it spits and sputters and runs on 2 or 3 cylinders, until it warms up. then i blast it down the road and for the first 1/4 mile it runs on 2 or 3 cyl then like magic they all join in
about a mile or two and all is well
rest of the summer all is good

last winter i had enthol in it
went thru the same thing to prepare it for winter
when spring came in 09, i charged the battery and it fired right up and ran on all 4, after a minute i took the choke off and it settled into a nice idle.
no skipping no farting nothing, just as if i had run it the day before.

i don't know about long term stuff
but i always run some dry gas in it every 2nd fillup
so far so good

[CatatonicBug]

i always run some dry gas in it every 2nd fillup

What is "dry gas"? I've always noticed a wetness factor to gasoline...

I always just run "gasoline" in my tank. Every once in a while, I add seafoam for kicks, and I even tried adding Acetone (with no noticeable difference).

Just regular, 87 octane gasoline (with the government-mandated 10% ethanol, of course) is all I really use. Considering the fact that fuel lines are designed to handle fuel, and everything else that touches the fuel is also designed to handle fuel (or it's metal), I can't imagine ethanol mixed in the gas is going to cause any problems with the fuel system itself. It may, however mess with performance, but that's another issue altogether.

[trbig]

[QUOTE][Trans-Am's in '76 had traditional PONTIAC engines. Not small-block chevy's. And no, it's not common on low mileage pontiacs.
/QUOTE]

In the 70's any car that had 70k miles was usually wore out! lol. I wouldnn't call 80k a low mileage motor back then.


Tod

[xswilly]

from my understanding ethonal absorbs mosture from the air

dry gas is an addituive we use in the northeast, because of condensation
it absorbs water and lets it go thru the motor without damage

up here if we let water build up in our tanks it will freeze in the gas line and the car will not start, and the only way to fix it is to bring it into a heated area until it thaws

so to combat ethonal intruducing mosture into gas i use the dry gas to take it away

[Mr. Schweer]

[QUOTE=trbig;223398]

[Trans-Am's in '76 had traditional PONTIAC engines. Not small-block chevy's. And no, it's not common on low mileage pontiacs.
/QUOTE]

In the 70's any car that had 70k miles was usually wore out! lol. I wouldnn't call 80k a low mileage motor back then.


Tod

yeah.....'low mileage' is pretty subjective. I was thinking along the lines of a 17 year old car only having 80K as being relatively low mileage. It's amazing how bad quality suffered as the model years progressed through the 70's. That '76's doors almost looked like 'reverse lambo' doors because the hinges allowed them to sag so bad!! My recently owned '70 and '71 Trans-Am hinges were perfect. The doors opened and closed like brand new cars!
I don't feel bad for GM at all........but that's TOO far off topic....

[Montreux_Blue]

Don't be dissing Pontiacs, you know your jealous! Ethanol is a big debate among all the classic car owners though.

Airplane fuel is just high grade car fuel, about the same as Premium pump fuel with a couple extra additives.

If the Air Force taught me correctly, JP-8, jet fuel, is very close to diesel fuel and they used to tell us that in a pinch we could use it our diesel fleet.

[Crazcnuk]

Jet fuel is a high grade kerosene, similar to diesel, yes, but higher octane. (or is it a high grade diesel similar to Kerosene?)

Diesels will run on all sorts of things, in a pinch. Kerosene, ATF, just to name a couple.

[Guy_b_g]

Everything in the Army fleet has been converted to JP-8, from generators to humvees to M1 tanks. It's just high quality kerosene.

Simpler logistics than running mogas, diesel, and JP-8, plus no mistakes in fueling.