They are out there and they are going to get you

[MartyA]

Ivan, very sorry to hear of your accident. I hope things work out well for you.

True that whatever penalty that kid gets may have no bearing on your recovery, but if the penalty does not fit the crime there is no preventive aspect to the penalty for others to consider when in similar situations.

Notwithstanding the safety aspects of excessive speeding on the highways, the penalties for breaking laws are intended to prevent people from breaking the laws. With the current ratio of LEO to citizens on the highway the odds are in the citizen's favor that they will not be stopped for speeding at any given time. Most states have escalating penalties for higher and higher speeds, so the speeders are weighing the odds (risk) of being caught with the amount they can comfortably pay (penalty) at whatever speed they might be caught at. Thus there is somewhat of a general "cap" on amount of excessive speed you see on the slab - citizens understand this and generally you see most traveling at +8 to +15 MPH (my observation on routes like I-95 and I-85 and I-80).

Suppose on an imaginary road the law states you can go up to 40 MPH over the posted limit and if you were caught it would be either an escalating fine or a $5 fine. The risk has not changed but the penalty has. What do you think that general "cap" of excessive speed would be on that same slab now? Since the penalty does not fit the crime you would of course expect a higher average speed.

From another perspective, if I were to publish stories that on this road all automobiles are fined at the $5 / 40MPH rate and motorcycles are fined at the escalating rate, imagine the chaos on that road. And everyone sees those stories. In this particular example, there now exists a tangible danger for anyone on a motorcycle. One can predict the outcome. One could even predict an increase of the occurrences of these bad outcomes. (Well, except maybe for legislators...)

The problem as I see it is the varying application of current penalties. It seems that across the country the penalty varies significantly regardless of the outcome depending upon if I turn left into an oncoming Yamaha or I turn left into an oncoming Toyota. There is a different application of penalties even if the cause was the same - "I did not see him." And automobile drivers know this.

This is discrimination, pure and simple. We have many many MANY laws and rules and regulation to prevent that, and penalties for doing it. So who is doing anything about this, and what can we do to help that effort?

[Erik the Red]

Sounds great... if you were to drive STRAIGHT into it. 99.9% of the median barrier contact is at a very low angle. They already build crash absorbtion (Crumple zones) into the vehicles. All you need to do is keep vehicles from crossing and entering the other lane. They still can't build them well enough for head-ons. Yes, there will be less g forces for the body to absorb in an enclosed vehicle with the cable barrier. I also worked as an EMT for several years. I never had a serious call from someone hitting the concrete barriers that were in place even though speeds were in excess of 70 mph.. just bumps and bruises.

I should've mentioned that it was at a 20 deg angle too for the example I'd mentioned. That was an AASHTO test. True, vehicle manufacturers do design their vehicles with crumple zones, but with the variety of vehicles out there, and the wide range of ages of them, you can't design road features to encompass that many different vehicles.

That being said though, I do agree with you that at low angle crashes concrete will just guide someone down the road. This does produce a new resultant problem... there is now a vehicle that is potentially inoperable (blown tire, busted axle, etc...) in a driving lane. There might be a shoulder next to the barrier, but if something bounces off of it, any separation between the barrier and vehicle is how much it's probably sticking out into a lane. Now you've got an object out there just waiting for other drivers on their cell phones to not notice and plow into, since you're essentially in a big concrete chute with nowhere to escape.

If you're in a cable barrier section, it will probably just be a one car crash. The overall cost of this scenario is much less than the other, in damage costs, in repair to the barrier, to the car, and to the person. So you're right, it'll come down to money. For the politicians, each biker they have wanting something, they'll have 20 cage drivers wanting something else.

There will be pros and cons associated with any given scenario. With as many variables involved in traffic as there are, it's impossible to accommodate everyone. We just happen to lose out by the numbers. Less safe in the first place, fewer of us out there, and others who are oblivious to our presence on the road (which kind of lends to less safe). All we can do is try to ride aware enough to avoid the situations where we end up hurt. Though, as Ivan demonstrated, you can't always avoid the idiots. Speedy recovery, man.

[Mr. Schweer]

The kid that rear ended me at 60 mph got a ticket for following too closely.

Inferiorating at first, but in all reality, the ticket or charge he gets will have absolutely no bearing on wether I walk again in two weeks or two years.

In short, the rush from vindication would result in short lived satisfaction.

wow, holy crap. dude, so sorry to hear that. here's to prayin' that it's two weeks!

[trbig]

The cable barrier deflects the most (6-7') at 63 mph with a 2 1/4 ton vehicle. Guardrail will not deflect more than 3', and concrete barrier, well, doesn't deflect. So, for the 95% of traffic out there, if someone is going to hit something, the cable barrier will give one the greatest distance in which to slow down. It allows more time for the energy to be dissipated from the car hitting it (i.e. less smashed up vehicle).

Sounds great... if you were to drive STRAIGHT into it. 99.9% of the median barrier contact is at a very low angle. They already build crash absorbtion (Crumple zones) into the vehicles. All you need to do is keep vehicles from crossing and entering the other lane. They still can't build them well enough for head-ons. Yes, there will be less g forces for the body to absorb in an enclosed vehicle with the cable barrier. I also worked as an EMT for several years. I never had a serious call from someone hitting the concrete barriers that were in place even though speeds were in excess of 70 mph.. just bumps and bruises. Many times, the airbags don't even deploy since it wasn't a frontal impact with enough g forces to set them off. A biker is going to hit one of these, bounce off and escape possibly with some road rash.. possibly worse.. but at least they have a CHANCE.

I'm not an engineer, but I do work for the highway dept here in Oklahoma. I've talked with our construction engineer about these. Here, it is simply a matter of innitial cost. The concrete barriers are cheaper in the long run due to the ability to take multiple hits. They will stop a top heavy bus doing 80mph at a 45 degree angle and not let them flip over! BUT.. the cable barriers are cheap to install, so they look better for someone operating on a fiscal budget. They know that they can put some of the repair costs off to some other time down the road without it burning up all their funds THIS year... even though they'll be more expensive in the long run.

It's not even the cables that's the worst. The cables run through essentially little "I" beams that are turned 90 degrees to the road. So just in case you hit a glancing blow to the cable and slide down it, you'll be met with sharp metal edges of the supports. Anyone that has ever seen what these barriers do to a vehicle... would shiver when thinking about a biker hitting them. It absolutely shreds cars... pieces everywhere. For a biker.. no gurney needed. Just trash bags. Been there and done that with bikers VS barbed wire fences.

I am kind of with Ivan on this one. Motorcyclists are a bit of a rowdy bunch anyway. I mean, what kind of sane person sits down with no seat belt or air bag. (Unless you ride a Goldwing.. ) These guys are really a mencace to society anyway.. what's it matter if we weed a few out here and there?


Tod

[Erik the Red]

by the numbers...

What pisses me off.. is here in Oklahoma and many other states, they have started installing these cable barriers between opposing lanes in the freeways. There are cars, trucks, and bikes out there. They are installing a death sentence to a bike rider to save a little money on concrete barriers.

Tod (& anyone else who cares),
Firstly, my credentials: I'm employed as a traffic engineer. Now on to the good stuff... Here in MI, they're called (officially) "Low Tension 3-Cable Barrier". But they're not just for saving money on concrete. I don't have the hard numbers on percentage of bikers on the roads, BUT, around here I'd guestimate that less than 5% of the motorists on the roads are bikers.

The cable barrier deflects the most (6-7') at 63 mph with a 2 1/4 ton vehicle. Guardrail will not deflect more than 3', and concrete barrier, well, doesn't deflect. So, for the 95% of traffic out there, if someone is going to hit something, the cable barrier will give one the greatest distance in which to slow down. It allows more time for the energy to be dissipated from the car hitting it (i.e. less smashed up vehicle).

So, for the majority of crashes, there will be a greater chance of passenger survival in the cable barrier scenario. That's why the cables. It's typically used in freeway medians where there's a more than 85% chance that traffic will travel farther than the median is wide in the event they leave the roadway. But you don't want it to deflect into oncoming traffic. That being said though, in our office, we use primarily guardrail. We also have a high number of semis, which need the heavier duty barriers to keep them on the roadway.

I'm sure some actuary would be able to give more specific costs associated with safety, though. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but wanted to shed some light on the other side of the coin. I won't be signed on again till after the weekend, but if anyone wants more detailed info, I'll check and see on Monday. Have a good one all.

-Erik

[Ivan]

It should be realized by this point, that governments are not concerned with the well being of their constituents, rather with the well being of their coffers. If cheese cutters kill pesky motorcyclists when they would have otherwise lived, that only puts more money in the coffers.

[Steptoe]

cheese cutters

the cables are called down here ,and motorcycle groups along with the larger auto groups did a lot of yelling BUT they just keep coming, by the kilometre----

[Russ79]

What a joke! That's just the way it is for bikers. Even in nonfatal crashes, the biker is usually knocked unconcious, leaving the cage driver to to tell his side of the story, however he wants. This is all that makes it into the police report, and the biker just gets screwed.

The fact that this guy was driving with a .21 blood alcohol level, makes him a murderer in my book. I just feel sorry for the victims family and friends.

Russ

[DenyP]

In Minnesota, he would have been charged with homicide! There is a take no prsioners attitude when it comes to causing a death driving intoxicated, as it should be.

Deny

[Cobia]

Human slicer

Tod,
Same as Bug, I hadn't thought about the deadly consequences should a motorcyclist hit those at speed. I wonder if the AMA has any efforts underway to ban these barriers.

[CatatonicBug]

You know, I've seen those cable barriers all over the country, but never thought about that! You're right - I sure wouldn't want to hit that cheese slicer at freeway speeds!

[trbig]

What pisses me off.. is here in Oklahoma and many other states, they have started installing these cable barriers between opposing lanes in the freeways. There are cars, trucks, and bikes out there. They are installing a death sentence to a bike rider to save a little money on concrete barriers. I went off the road a couple years ago due to a blowout. I didn't go down, but I had no control on where the bike was going really. If I would have gone into one of those.... death. I'm just amazed that motorcycle groups haven't been hollering about them.

Tod

[Steptoe]

it,s society

that,s decaying they tell you,, pigs bum it is,
it,s smug lawyers with a fancy way with words & judges that don,t seem to get out much,, let,s see how fast they,d back flip if it was their family

[cueball]

life is like a s*&t sandwich, the more bread you have, the less s*&t you have to eat.

[Bigfoot]

Didn't you know that people aren't responsible for their actions in this country

At least they aren't if they can get a good lawyer.