Sad Story - Fuel Economy

[HobbyMan]

I hate to butt in but Maximan is completely correct on this one. MY family and I were in the same situation. We were strictly gas for a long time. We towed our travel trailer with our 454GMC. AS if the fuel economy wasn't bad enough, it dropped severely when towing. In our case it had enough power. Then we got our boat and realized that we needed more torque to do long haul trips with the boat. We got the 4x4 excursion with the 7.3L dl. IT gets close to 20mpg driving around with no load. I have seen it go above 20 a few times. When towing our 10000lb boat, at speeds over 80mph, it gets about 12mpg. At a more comfortable 60mph, it can get up to 16 and sometimes above depending on the wind. Keep in mind that 4x4 will also decrease fuel econ. Before we actually owned a Diesel, our conception of them was that they were loud, and put out a lot of smoke(bad for the environment). Obviously, it was not an accurate conception. It is only when diesels are not maintained that they get to this condition which gives them a bad name. A properly running diesel will run very clean. A lot of race cars are switching over to diesel. My soon to be brother in law follows diesel racing more than anything else. He can attest to this.

[xschop]

prius smius

That Prius car is a scam. You actually pay more for the purchase upfront and maintenance (batteries have to be replaced every few years and they're expeeeeeeeeeensive)... I drove one and the thing was new and looked like some of the wires already needed replacing from the Galvanic reaction(they were copper) from the constant juice. Most people don't know, but some firefighters have been killed/injured when trying to use the Jaws-of- Life to remove passengers from the wreck of these cars...JAT....AND NO, I WOULDN'T WANT TO BE THE GUINEA PIG FOR ANY OF MY INVENTIONS/CONCOCTIONS EITHER THE BEST BATCH I MADE CAME FROM PURE COTTONSEED OIL, TRANSESTERFIED WITH 100% METHANOL AND USED IT IN A DIESEL GENERATOR AND IT NO LONGER BLEW BLACK SMOOT, BUT WAS EXPENSIVE TO MAKE ALTHOUGH VERY EASY.....

[Crazcnuk]

"Dichotomy ... or confusion?"

Only on your part. You've not been reading my posts. I don't have anything against diesel, but as they are made by the same companies that make our gas engines, they are not nearly as efficient as they should be either

Actually you missed the point. Your gasoline engine will not get 16 mpg pulling a 10,000 lb load. If you say it does I call BS.

You missed mine. I, and 99.5% of the population have no NEED to pull around 10,000lbs, yet lots of people drive P/U, for no reason.

Now....when I'm pulling NO LOAD my behemoth get about 21-22 mpg...and not with "highway gears". It might get 50 mpg with taller gearing!

And you think this is good? Most decent gas pickups will get in the mid to high 20's when running around empty. My point is there no reason an empty pickup is getting 30ish.

What you don't realize is I used to think like you. I used to think gasoline was a better choice until I actually started using diesels. I used to say "I wouldn't have a diesel stuck up my a$$ if I had room for a freight train." That was until I tried one.

I never said I didn't like Diesels. Diesels are great for very specific uses. Diesels are great IF you need to pull around large loads a lot. Diesels are great if you do more than 50,000kms per year and keep your vehicles for 10 years or more. I tried lots of diesels, gas, propane. I've also done a fair amount of work on getting better mieleage out of gas engines. The factories are not really trying to get better mileage (very hard) out of the engines they build GAS OR DIESEL.

I have been in a business that employees the use of light trucks extensively. Over the past 25 years of being in this business we have had 30 or 40 light duty gasoline trucks. In the past few years we've have tried a few diesels and have been utterly pleased.

Good for you.

Diesels stink...I suppose that depends on your sniffer. Diesels cost more at intitial purchase ..yes. Diesels last longer ... YES. Diesels cost more to operate over the long haul...NO. Diesels are superior for real world work...YES.

Depends on what you call real work. Diesels can last longer no doubt. They are also more economical over A LOT of miles, not just a few, but let's face it, most diesel pickups out there will get no more miles on them, by thier original owners, than a gas one would have. Most people will never recover the initial purchase premium.

There is a reason trucking companies use diesels almost exclusively. They have more torque for real work. They last far and away longer...outlasting their gasoline counterparts by a factor of two. They get far better fuel economy when pulling loads.

Yes, but we weren't talking trucking companies ( at least I wasn't) You're advocating, like a lot of diesel owners, that EVERYONE run out and buy a diesel. My point is that, like your trucking companies, unless you have a very specific need, diesel is not necessarily the gest choice.

Now that I've tried a diesel passenger car I am even more pleased with diesel. Maybe you should actually try one instead of knocking them like I used too.

Cars are a different ball game, and I have freinds with Diesel cars (Ford, VW) They work fine. The friend who had the Tempo made real use of his. 55mpg over 50,000kms per year. He had 400,000kms on his at last count. A friend of my parents had over 700,000kms on her late 80's Ford diesel, pulling a horse trailer around the barrel racing circuit every summer.

But again, for your average joe that does 20,000kms per year, they have to keep it a long time to recoup the initial investment. I have a friend that put 64,000kms on his truck in 10 years!

Show me ANY mass produced gasoline passenger vehicle that will get 58 mpg and I will eat my proverbial hat.

Yes, because any that have come out, were instant successes, and the factories discontinued them. The Sprint and Firefly come to mind. The Ford Tempo Diesel, not sure how the Ranger Diesel was.

Please don't throw up that bogus Toyota Prius. First off it is not purely gasoline and secondly it will get nowhere NEAR 57 mpg. I have three friend with those cars and all three are very disappointed in there lack luster performance. The best one of these fellas ever got was 42 on the highway...yet Toyota Claims 60?

I wouldn't touch a hybrid with diesel tools. They are a scam. They are supposed to keep us happy, by making us think the industry is doing something, while we happily burn up the gas.

What I am saying, is that while diesels may be SLIGHTLY more efficient than gas (for the average user, not trucking companies) they are built no more efficiently, by the factories, than gas engines made by the same mfg.

Diesels SHOULD get far better mileage than they do, just like gas engines. They only had to make the marginally better, though and the idiots out there pay several thousand more for a few more mpg.

Here Diesel used to cost less than half what gasoline does, but as soon as diesel consumer vehicles came out, diesel miraculously became the same price as gas??

[Crazcnuk]

Hobby, you haven't been listening either.

Of course your 454 got terrible mileage. It was probably pushing less than 250hp.

Gas engines should make at LEAST 1HP per cubic inch. If yours doesn't then it's undertuned. The factories make, almost exclusively, undertuned engines, gas or diesel.
The XS1100 makes well OVER that number, 95hp/65cuin = 1.46.

Go out and calcuate what your engine is making, compared to it's size.

AS I pointed out, my friends Firebird was getting @ 28mpg, on the highway at 70-75mph, with a 428hp 454.

We took a Dakota with a 318 and jumped it from 8-14mpg, to 16-25mpg by changing the Camshaft. (we also had to change pistons as the bores had to redone, so compression went from 8.7:1 to 9.5:1).

I keep trying to tell my dad to redo the 454 in his Pace Arrow motorhome. I will guarantee him 12mpg minimum. He gets 8mpg now.

Derwat had a Pace Arrow, until recently, and we were going to redo his to see what improvement we could make, but the motorhome was stolen about a month ago.

Keep in mind that all this goes for Diesel as well. I am just not as familiar with them as I am with gas. What I am saying, is that by spending less than half what the premium is to get a diesel, you can make a gas engine get better mileage than a FACTORY diesel that you get off the lot.

The parents of another friend of mine took an old 1 ton ambulance van. Cut it off about 2ft behind the front seats. They sealed it in, then put an aluminum 5th wheel deck on the back. With a TH400-4 4spd automatic overdrive tranny, and an IH industrial Diesel engine they routinely were gettin 25-28mpg pulling thier large (I think it was 24 or 26' but older, heavier than modern trailers) holiday trailer.

[MAXIMAN]

Whatever......

As far as your statement: "You missed mine. I, and 99.5% of the population have no NEED to pull around 10,000lbs, yet lots of people drive P/U, for no reason."

I suppose that is really none of your business why people choose to drive a given vehicle. Unless of course you're an EnviroNazi and want to pass laws to FORCE people to drive what you think they should drive.

I really don't think you're that radical....are ya?

You said:

"Yes, because any that have come out, were instant successes, and the factories discontinued them. The Sprint and Firefly come to mind."

No wonder you call yourself Craz. (just poking at cha...no offense) but this statement really does not make sense. When a company builds a good product they just arbitrarily discontinue that product? And certainly have not seen any gasoline compacts that will get anywhere near 60 mpg.

This conversation is going nowhere fast. It was REALand it was FUN...............but it wasn't REAL FUN...

CYA

Cg

[DiverRay]

Maximan,
You need to remember, he lives in CANADA, land of the MULTI-FAMILY vehicles! this is that they get cars we DO NOT here in the US, and a LOT of them are BETTER than the JUNK the DOT forces down our throats!
You BOTH have good points, just need to slow down and mull each others point of view. If not, I get to watch the drag race, with 1/4 US gallon of fuel per vehicle!

[Crazcnuk]

I suppose that is really none of your business why people choose to drive a given vehicle. Unless of course you're an EnviroNazi and want to pass laws to FORCE people to drive what you think they should drive.

I really don't think you're that radical....are ya?


It has nothing to do with being radical, or what I think or don't think. It's the point of the conversation. I DO sense a little guilt here though (lol).

You said

"Yes, because any that have come out, were instant successes, and the factories discontinued them. The Sprint and Firefly come to mind."

No wonder you call yourself Craz. (just poking at cha...no offense) but this statement really does not make sense. When a company builds a good product they just arbitrarily discontinue that product? And certainly have not seen any gasoline compacts that will get anywhere near 60 mpg

It makes perfect sense if you consider that the auto mfgs are very closesly tied to the oil industry and the oil industry has no real vested interest in providing fuel efficient vehicles. GM sold an electric a few years ago that the buyers just loved. GM immediately quit making them and actually went around buying back all the ones they could so they could destroy them. The owners got together and formed a protest to stop GM from destorying these cars, and, last I heard, there is a huge yard full of them down east.

If the engineers, that designed the small block Chevy V8 we all know and love, said (in 1954) ALL internal combustion, gasoline engines SHOULD produce at least 1hp/cuin. don't you think they should be even better by now?

Remember that fuel economy is efficiency. The major mfgs have been releasing an "All new 2xxhp engine every other year for 50 years. Don't you think that's a bit strange?

My 502 cu in GM engine is rated at 502hp. It's stock, not hopped up. GM sells it as a Truck replacement engine. If you had a 350 in your truck, it should be 350hp. MINIMUM.

The XS1100 is 65cuin and ~95hp. No turbo, no blower no nitrous. Extrapolate that and a 350 Chevy (351 Ford, 360 Dodge, whatever) should be around 511hp. My 502 should be around 733hp.

What does this mean? It means IF a pickup is comfortable with 250hp, it should have an efficient 171cuin engine in it. Don't you think this would get considerably better mileage?

If this is how they make gas engines, why do you think that diesesl would be built any different? I use gas as an example because I am more familiar with them.

My point is: That although diesels are slightly more efficient mileage wise, they are not nearly as efficient as they CAN be. Nor are Gas engines, obviously.

The actual Forte of diesels is in thier longevity. You have to drive a LOT of miles before that extra fuel mileage will cover the additional cost of buying the diesel.

No issues here, just a freindly conversation!

There are several other forums discussing this very stuff scattered about, you might be interested in checking them out.