Sad Story - Fuel Economy

[Crazcnuk]

Personally, I think hydrogen is the way to go. But since I don't have a few billion on me, no one listens.

[skippy344]

Bio- Diesel, PFFFT

The last thing I need is some darn bio-diesel in front of me smelling like french fries...

I already have 20 lbs I could lose, and don't need to be reminded how much I like french fries. And oh look, there is a McDonalds!

Of course, if I were following Willie Nelson's bio bus, I'd be smelling more than french fries...

greg

[xs650mike]

Maybe it's just me but everytime I get behind a diesel I get a freakin' headache. Lucky for me the Eleven makes it easy to pass! Had opportunity to smell the exhaust coming out of a biodiesel powered Yukon Denali (or was it a Denial?) down in Marin County, kinda like the exhaust fan at the burger joint. Didn't give me a headache either.

[DiverRay]

Greg,
If you were following Willie Nelson's Bio Bus, you'd gain another twenty pounds!! Just the "munchie" factor would account for that!

[skippy344]

LOL ROFL LMAO

You got that right, Diver!

[Crazcnuk]

Problem with all these so-called enviro freindly fuels, is that none are really environment freindly.

Natural gas, and propae are cleaner than gas, but barely. Bio diesel, or diesle are only marginally cleaner than gas.

These are all designed to distract the 'commoners' from the real problem. These fuels are (purposely) low in supply and expensive. Yes, they help the environment a LITTLE. but they will never be truly viable.

The only real fuel you can burn, in any engine, furnace, or whatever, and be truly pollution free, is hydrogen.

The only fuel you can burn and be assured you won't run out is Hydrogen.

Everything else is just designed to make us think the industry is doing something they aren't. Meanwhile, they are still letting us burn up as much of the fuel as they can sell to us before we realize we are bieng scammed.

Why spend billions developing useless fuels, when we can just start making things run on Hydrogen.

The problem with any fuel is not the part that burns (Hydrogen) it's all the crap that is in the fuel with it, ie: carbon, sulfur, nitrogen, etc etc.

Hydrogen is pure. No pollutants whatsoever.

[The Lorax]

Hydrogen is nice work if you can get it, By the way, I agree, hydrogen is the way to go as far as a clean burning fuel and we will never run out of it. unfortunately, last time I checked, it cost more to "make" or extract from whatever...air, water etc than the energy it yields is worth. with some perseverence and ingenuity, I think we'll get there, but I don't see it as anything but a more long term solution to our energy needs. these "alternative fuels" we are fooling around with might help to bridge the gap as it were. on a semi - related note, did anyone else see the thing on the discovery channel where those fellas used a magnetic field, hydrogen and some high voltage or some other means of generating heat and got a fusion reaction? it still needs some work as they are not able to sustain the reaction for very long but once the bugs are worked out, nuclear without the waste. sounds kinda cool.

[Crazcnuk]

So we go with the dirty stuff instead?

Problem is, WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

The only choice we have is to make enough electricity to make hydrogen work.

We have the means, it's the will to fight big money we lack.

BioDiesel and grain alcohols take more energy to make than you get out of them too, not to mention that your wasting food, which many countries need.

Nothing we do, that will be good in the long run is going to be cheap. But we have to do it.

[79XS11F]

Originally posted by MAXIMAN


And gasoline ISN'T?

Gasoline is far more refined so no where near as bad as diesel.
but yes nether of them is good for you.
Rob

[MAXIMAN]

That's my point. In reality there is not a "plug nickel's" difference between the two in the scheme of things.

You don't need to lecture me on the aspects of refined petroleum products. I have worked in this industry for 30+ years. And my company ...though small...is a first line LPG refiner. We produce liquid propane, butane, and a variety of natural gasolines in an LP mix from natural gas via a refrigeration process (specifically Jule-Thompson).

Now for the rest of you people that have turned this good news thread...(a small diesel car that gets 50 mpg)... into a damned environmental debate...there is no short term quick fix that will fill the gap of hydrocarbons.

I believe in the future the planet may well be free of using hydrocarbons for energy. I think sooner or later we'll be forced to do it.

But right now that is no where near reality. And if you are truly offended by the burning of fossil fuels...if it is a sin to your religion ...then please practice what you preach. Park your Eleven and ride a bicycle!

[MAXIMAN]

Originally posted by Crazcnuk
So we go with the dirty stuff instead?

Problem is, WE HAVE NO CHOICE.

The only choice we have is to make enough electricity to make hydrogen work.

Ok ... here I tried to post a positive up beat good news thread of a small diesel engine that will get 50+ mpg and has the equivalent carbon foot print of a bug ( pun intended ). Now the thread as been hijacked into a enviromental debate....so...

I have a question. Pray tell how you propose to generate all this "electricity to MAKE hydrogen work."? Are you just going to snap your magic fingers? (Don't forget the irrefutable laws of thermodynamics...there is no free lunch.)

[Jerry]

I mentioned this thread to my wife, now she wants me to be on the lookout for a diesel VW bug.

I've driven econo-cars for may years, Toyota, Honda, Saturn. My current DD is a '92 Saturn that regularly turns in 36 mpg at 75 - 80 mph. (I drive mostly interstate to work and back.) Car is equipped with cruise, AC, moon roof, power windows, stereo, most of the things people take for granted in todays cars. Heck, thats better mileage than I get with the full-faining XJ.

If they could make 36mpg car 15 year ago, (and even farther back) why not 50 mpg today?

For all the debate, for me it comes down to this. An econocar is a necessity; I commute 112 miles a day. Anything that slows our use of fossile fuels is a good thing. VW is poised to bring out the next genertion of Diesels in 2008; we are already looking that direction. Have driven the Toyota Prius - Garfield County, my employer, has several - and while nice it does not turn in the mileage I had expected. Have also looked at the Honda LNG car, available only in certain markets, not in my area yet. You can buy or lease your own pumping station to refuel overnight or whatever. Range is not great but ideal for me as a commuter car. There are options out ther and a few more are coming.

I'm not out to save the world, better economy keeps more money in my pocket. Helping the environment is a plus.

Other 'family car' is a 2001 Honda Accord 4-banger, gets 32 - 33mpg at 75 - 80 mpg. Our old Toyotas (Tercel and Camry) never turned in less than 30 mpg.

No reason we can't get better milage vehicles, it is just a question of consumer demand, which is building but is by no means a major movement. In the mean time, put your money to work...may your next vehicle get over 30mpg in real-life conditions, not some EPA average.

PS: If I could aford a place closer to work I would move and cut my commute distance. As it is, even with the extra fuel price, I live about as close to work as I can afford.

[yadada]

Sorry about the stinky comment Maximan. Don't take it personal. I think I saw in another thread that you are from TX? So you shouldn't take stink (BS) personal at all!

So is the car really pink? Are you man enough to drive it if it is pink and you had too?

My friends daughter had a gas version named Bob. But he was blue. She had to sell it because she couldn't afford German service techs on a Target paycheck though.

[MAXIMAN]

No Randy...I live in Oklahoma...it's just a territory of Texas. The car is white. But I don't drive it...she does.

Jerry I think the Beetle Diesel woudl be idea for commuting. The gasoline version has had some issues and besides I understand they don't do all that well on fuel economy.

But every VW diesel owner I've talked to loves their car and says they are reliable. One friend of mine told me to expect upwards of 60 mpg and that he has gotten as high as 54 with his diesel 4 door Jetta.

However these cars have a drive belt for the OHC and it must be replaced every 60 to 80K miles to prevent self destruction. So if this has not been done you'll need to have it done if the car has more than that many miles. It's a $500-800 job depending on who you talk to. But after that the car should be good to go for another 80,000 miles or more.

[Crazcnuk]

"I have a question. Pray tell how you propose to generate all this "electricity to MAKE hydrogen work."?"

Nuclear

Just get over it. We have been using nuclear power for over half a century. Bite the bullet and build some BIG plants.

In Canada, I propose one big plant in each of Ontario, Quebec, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and B.C.,

Take our current usage, add proposed usage increase for the next 25yrs, add another 50% and build.

Whatever we don't use, the U.S. will buy.

People just get so stuck in the 'we need to change, but I don't wanna' mode. So every time someone offers a solution, instead of looking at all the positives, they look for every negative they can think of.

One day, someone will crack a sustainable fusion reaction, and everything we know now will go out the window.

The whole electricity shortage is a myth created by our gov'ts, not because it's not feasible, but because they don't want to build to meet demand.

News Flash: Demand is never going to DROP. Even if we all cut back, the increase in population and toys will more than keep up.