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  • #31
    Originally posted by showtime
    Michigan recently relaxed the 'retreat rule' that said a citizen had to try and flee before using deadly force. Michigan citizens can still shoot fleeing felons even if their own life is not in danger. Cops can't.
    WOOHOO...go Michigan!

    Oklahoma did this a few years ago. It is "The Make My Day Law." It essentially allows Oklahoma citizens more freedom to use deadly force when their property has been invaded.

    There needs be no "proof" of threat to life or limb in this state. If a maggot invades my home I have the right to kill him on the spot no questions asked.

    This is the case that lead to the law to begin with. I'll post it here. More states should follow suite. If some piece of human debris has the unmitigated gall to intrude into my home I should have the unfettered right to kill him on the spot. I should not have to wait for him to threaten. I should not have to have an inquiry as to his reason for breaking into my home...before I blow a hole in him big enough to drive an XS11 through.

    Here's the case that set the stage for the passing of this law in the state of Oklahoma:

    How the 'Make My Day' law cut epidemic of violent burglary

    By Charles Laurence
    Sunday London Telegraph

    At 3.30am on January 6, 1987, Dr Frank Sommer, a dentist in Tulsa, Oklahoma, woke to the sound of his garage door opening. He looked at the clock, mentally scolded his son, then 18, or his daughter 20, for getting home so late, and waited for the sound of their footsteps downstairs.

    "After a few minutes, I thought that it was odd that I had heard nothing more. I took the gun from my nightstand, left my wife fast asleep and went downstairs to make sure everything was OK," he recalled yesterday.

    What happened next was an experience of pure terror. As he looked through the peep-hole from the kitchen into the garage, he saw two strange men. One was pilfering from his wife's car: the other was standing at the opened door, by the tool racks.

    Just as he stepped through the door to challenge the intruders, the lights went out. "It was total darkness and suddenly I was very, very scared. I fired one shot and yelled a warning. I saw one figure run off and as I went towards the driveway I saw a body in the doorway. 'Oh no!' I thought. 'He's dead.' "

    In those few seconds Dr Sommer, 66, had been plunged into a case that changed the law in Oklahoma and may yet influence a change in the law in Britain. Within weeks of the incident, the Oklahoma state government passed legislation that became known as the Make My Day Law, named for the celebrated scene in the Clint Eastwood Dirty Harry film.

    The law was pushed through by Sen Charles Ford, a Republican, the opposition party in the state.

    "The purpose of the law is to protect the victim of crime who defends his home and his family against unlawful intrusion from any criminal prosecution or civil action," Sen Ford said last week.

    "We considered it outrageous that someone who protects his home and family should suffer. Our law says you can use any force, including deadly force, to defend your home."

    It has been an unqualified success. Since the Make My Day Law came into force, burglary has declined by almost half in Oklahoma. In 1987, there were 58,333 cases; in 2000, just 31,661.

    While crime rates throughout America fell in the 1990s, Make My Day supporters point to a second statistic in Oklahoma they say proves the impact of the new law: while burglary rates plunged, other forms of theft stayed constant. In 1988, there were 96,418 cases, in 2000, 96,111.

    Similar anti-burglar laws have now been adopted in Colorado and Arizona. The reason, said Sen Ford, was simple: "The law works. We were in the grip of a violent burglary epidemic when Dr Sommer's home was invaded.

    "Over that Christmas, we had six people in their 70s and 80s killed, bludgeoned to death by burglars in their bedrooms. How were they meant to defend themselves if they could not legally resort to lethal force?" he said.

    Giving householders immunity from criminal and civil action was also inspired by Dr Sommer's experience. Although he was taken to the police station and interrogated, the District Attorney read the public mood over the series of deadly burglaries and decided against charging him with the killing of the burglar, Russell Bryant, 19.

    An "ambulance chaser" lawyer contacted Bryant's family and sought damages for a lifetime of lost earnings on the grounds that the killing was unlawful.

    "This was outrageous and focused attention on the vague state of the law which left the victim of burglary vulnerable," said Sen Ford, 73.

    Prior to the Make My Day legislation, the law, as it remains in most American states, sanctioned force in self-defence and the defence of property, but only on the basis of "reasonable" response to the violence offered by the criminal. This allows a baseball bat against a baseball bat, a knife against a knife, and a gun against a gun - although in theory the householder should allow the burglar to shoot first.

    There have now been at least 11 cases where intruders have been shot dead in Oklahoma and the householders who pulled the trigger have escaped any sanction under the Make My Day law.

    While Dr Sommer is a fervent supporter of the law protecting householders, he said that killing Bryant had left him into overwhelming feelings of guilt and that for years he was tormented by the thought that he had committed the "ultimate sin".

    "Every time I go into that garage I think about it," he explained. "But I do not regret it. My wife and children were in our home. I am sorry that young man was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that was of his choosing."

    Comment


    • #32
      Texas is the same way. There is NO "duty to retreat" here. You'll still face a grand jury, but if a "reasonable person" would feel threatened, you have the right to use deadly force.
      CUAgain,
      Daniel Meyer
      Author. Adventurer. Electrician.
      Find out why...It's About the Ride.

      Comment


      • #33
        There was another incident

        There was another incident Tuesday this week.

        This time it was about 4 blocks from my house. This time somebody was shot - a 16 year old.

        The police verified that at least 20 shots were fired based on the number of shell casings left at the scene.

        On the news I saw vehicles and houses that were hit from stray bullets.

        A 9 year old was very nearly shot. A stray bullet came through the kitchen window and whizzed past his head, lodging in one of the kitchen cabinet.

        These people have no respect for anything.

        Dan
        Home of ENIAC

        Kinda like a MANIAC with 2 letters difference & a computer on board

        Comment


        • #34
          My point is in this state there likely would not even be a "Grand jury". And there needs be NO threat to life or limb...only threat to property.

          If some worthless twit breaks into my garage and tries to steal my prized possesion "Zilla" and can kill him.

          Now... I don't know that I actually would kill a man for stealing personal property...however if they tried to hurt one of my best friends (a 1982 XJ1100J)...I certainly might and in this state I have no impediment to excersize that right.

          Also please note the statistics of forced breaking and entering. In 1987 there were 58,000 forced entries. By 2000 ...inspite of our growing population...this crime was down to half that.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by MAXIMAN
            My point is in this state there likely would not even be a "Grand jury". And there needs be NO threat to life or limb...only threat to property.

            If some worthless twit breaks into my garage and tries to steal my prized possesion "Zilla" and can kill him.

            Now... I don't know that I actually would kill a man for stealing personal property...however if they tried to hurt one of my best friends (a 1982 XJ1100J)...I certainly might and in this state I have no impediment to excersize that right.

            Also please note the statistics of forced breaking and entering. In 1987 there were 58,000 forced entries. By 2000 ...inspite of our growing population...this crime was down to half that.
            This is a story taken from an unrelated forum I belong to.
            In OK it would be lawful to kill this person?

            "Christmas Day...we were all sitting around my SIL house, nibbling on snacks and having some drinks...just talking. My MIL steps aside as this guy opens the front door and comes right in from outside. He was smiling and started going around introducing himself, ...very friendly, seemed nice, maybe 35 yrs old. He went around and shook everyone's hand and said, "Hi I'm Frances...", as he made sure he introduced himself personally to each of us. He then asked if we had eaten yet and someone said, yes we did but to go help himself. Frances looks around and says, "Do I have the wrong house? Is this Kathy and Rogers house?"
            How embarrassing!! ..this guy was suppose to be at the neighbors house! No one knew him (other then his introductions) as he stormed out! I was laughing so hard Kahlua and milk shot out my nose!! The whole thing was hysterical!! We were all laughing the whole night!"

            I'm all for defending yourself, loved ones, and property. But tragic mistakes do happen.

            We have plenty of gunfire around our town too.
            Just this last weekend 4 people were shot in the parking lot of the motel across the street from the hospital I work at, one was killed and 3 came to us. 30 minutes later two people were shot at a convience store 3 miles away. 3 hours later 2 more were shot at the mall across town.
            Layed-back California.

            (not starting a flame war, just another angle)
            Pat Kelly
            <p-lkelly@sbcglobal.net>

            1978 XS1100E (The Force)
            1980 XS1100LG (The Dark Side)
            2007 Dodge Ram 2500 quad-cab long-bed (Wifes ride)
            1999 Suburban (The Ship)
            1994 Dodge Spirit (Son #1)
            1968 F100 (Valentine)

            "No one is totally useless. They can always be used as a bad example"

            Comment


            • #36
              That's right. In this state I would have the right to shoot him... dead ... for unlawful entry...no matter how "friendly" he was. At the point some stranger has entered my house without my permission I have no idea what his intentions are. Just because he's "acting friendly" doesn't mean he is welcomed in the privacy of my home.

              Does there need to be a grand jury investigation before I can "remove him" from my house?

              I still have no problem with the law. Why?

              How stupid do you have to be to enter a house that you've never been to before and NOT KNOCK?!?! I dunno how your daddy raised you Pat....but mine raised me to be a little more considerate of peoples personal property especially their place of refuge...their homes.

              I was also raised in rural Texas where about 90% of the homes are armed to the TEETH. I damned well knew better than to let myself into a strange house. Probably something "city folk" just do not grasp.

              Oh sure I let myself into friends houses. But I knew they weren't going to blow me back out the door. I knew them and they knew me. But even then I knock and yell "Hello...Hello...anybody home!". I don't just waltz into the living area like I'm supposed to be there.

              I would NEVER NEVERenter a strange house without first ringing the door bell or knocking. It is painfully obvious "Frances" had never been to this house before.

              Like Dr. Sommmer's said in the article..."...I am sorry that young man was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But that was of his choosing."

              I should not be held liable for killing some one that has forcibly entered my home without my permission...regardless of their intent.

              Comment


              • #37
                Pat Kelly
                <p-lkelly@sbcglobal.net>

                1978 XS1100E (The Force)
                1980 XS1100LG (The Dark Side)
                2007 Dodge Ram 2500 quad-cab long-bed (Wifes ride)
                1999 Suburban (The Ship)
                1994 Dodge Spirit (Son #1)
                1968 F100 (Valentine)

                "No one is totally useless. They can always be used as a bad example"

                Comment


                • #38
                  Maximan- That's true, you would have the legal right to kill that person. However, I'm pretty sure that most reasonable people would inquire as to what Frances is doing first before taking his life. Especially considering he was acting nothing like a hoodlum.

                  Of course, there could be lots of mitigating circumstances. Perhaps Kathy and Roger told him to "just come on in" and it was simply a mistaken address. That's not worth someone's life.

                  But mistakes like that do happen. A friend of mine was in a similar situation as Frances. He was at the bar, had too much to drive home, and two of his parents' friends said he could crash on their couch. Third house on the right, porch light will be on, and the door open. He'd never been there before but he had directions. He woke up in the morning to see a little old lady peeking around the corner and a state trooper with his hand on his gun at the back door. Assessing the situation, he said "This isn't Dick and Rita's house, is it?"

                  Did he deserve to be shot for that? (we all agreed that he was lucky as hell to not have been shot) But alcohol consumption aside, it was a simple mistake. There was a cabin back from the road a ways that he'd missed in his counting. The neighbor's house was open and the porch light was on.

                  Because you have the right to shoot someone doesn't mean that you should. If they are blatently burgling your stuff, that's one thing. But I think that we, as human beings, have the duty to assess the situation to determine (to the best of our ability) whether or not the person who is unlawfully on your property deserves killin'.
                  -Do what makes you happy.

                  '79 Honda CB 750 K (2)
                  '78 XS 11 E - "Rhona"
                  ...and a 2nd E, for the goodies on it.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I have a solution ... emigrate to Australia. I am 41 and lived in a number of cities and I do not recall hearing a gunshot anywhere even once. No one gets around scared, unless you are silly enough to be drunk and wobbly in the city at 4am (not me anymore).

                    Hardly anyone has guns anymore either since Martin Bryant cut loose in Port Arthur and killed 35 people with semi autos. The governments outlawed weapons that year. Not a decision that I supported but still.....aint no shootin round here.

                    I love the USA, and the yanks are our brothers, but very sad about all that violence over there. Hope you can find some peace and quiet. Cheers. Scott
                    Scotty J
                    Burpengary, Q Australia
                    XS1100E 1978
                    XJ900N 1985
                    Ariel 350 Red Hunter 1949

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      in Australia
                      The annual reduction in firearm homicides accelerated from 3 to 7.5 per cent annually and firearm suicides, from 3 to 7.4 per cent, the report found.
                      (after gun ban and "buy back program")

                      7.5 per cent annually decrease is substantial.......

                      Gun deaths have not ended, but now only criminals have guns.
                      Don't get me wrong, if it works for you great. Your population country wide is only " Population: 20,264,082 (July 2006 est.)"

                      Can not compare other countries to USA. Our smaller states have bigger cities and larger populations than most countries. There are more guns in the citizens hands in the US than most armies of the world.

                      California population is well over 30,000,000 legal? residents and millions more illegal. One thing our government doe's not like to say is how many criminals from other countries come here to "ply their trade" because if caught here they will not be punished as in home country.

                      There are many many places in our country that are as safe as anywhere in the world to live. Just depends on the lifestyle you want to live.


                      mro

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        If you want to talk statistics, check out violent, armed crime against citizens in Texas since they introduced concealed carry - it shot (no pun intended) down very quickly.
                        1979 XS11F Standard - Maya - 1196cc (out of order)
                        1978 XS11E Standard - Nina - 1101cc
                        http://www.livejournal.com/~xs11

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Erik the Red
                          Because you have the right to shoot someone doesn't mean that you should. If they are blatently burgling your stuff, that's one thing. But I think that we, as human beings, have the duty to assess the situation to determine (to the best of our ability) whether or not the person who is unlawfully on your property deserves killin'.
                          Well DOH!

                          I personally don't know anyone that is "blood thirsty" and simply wants to "KILL KILL KILL"! Do you? Most of the people I know don't have a trigger finger.

                          On the other hand most of the people I know should not have to face any crap for killiing an intruder...MISTAKE OR NOT.

                          You friend is very lucky to be alive. Probably the only reason he is ...is due to the fact he was alseep.

                          If I walked into my living area and a stranger was asleep on the sofa I wouldn't excute him...how absurd. But you can bet you bottom dollar he would be looking down the barrel of my Combat Commander when I woke him up.

                          Just be damned good and sure you are at the right house before you go in. If you do that at might house...and I feel threatened...I may well shoot first and ask questions later.

                          My only point being I am so sick of reading stories where some bastard broke into some one's house ... got shot...and filed suite against the victim. That is precisely what happened to Dr. Sommers. And that is non-sense. This is exactly why the state legislature passed said law.

                          A very effective law I might add.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by mro
                            There are many many places in our country that are as safe as anywhere in the world to live. Just depends on the lifestyle you want to live.


                            mro
                            Excellent point MR. MRO!

                            I believe it was Thomas Jefferson that wrote "Those who would exchange their freedom in lieu of security deserve neither."

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Ben Franklin stated several times (with slightly different words each time)

                              Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
                              However, if you feel unsafe where you are especially when you have a family, I say move.
                              1979 XS11F Standard - Maya - 1196cc (out of order)
                              1978 XS11E Standard - Nina - 1101cc
                              http://www.livejournal.com/~xs11

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I think we have gotten off the original question and the reality of the situation. I don't think this started about home invasions and the right to bear arms. It started about someone being concerned about their families safety. When I delt with this I was no so much concerned about someone breaking into my home but the stray bullet or being caught in the crossfire. No gun will protect you from this. A house one street over from me was the victim of a wrong address drive by shooting. Over 100 bullet holes in the front of the house. The older couple that lived there were both wounded. The last time we repainted I found 2 bullet holes right next to my second floor window. Luckily they did not pentrate. The last summer we lived there we had to take my son to a park in another part of town so he could play outside. This is the issue, the safety of them. I almost got caught up into the "I'm not gonna give in I will and defend my family "pridefullness. But I had to realize that if one of them were hit by stray gunfire they would still be dead. So Dan think of them.
                                78E ... Gone but not forgotten
                                2006 Kawasaki Concours....just getting to know it

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