Failure to commit

[Wildkat]

(no... I am NOT talking personal relationships)

Some time ago we saw one of those Xtreme stunt shows on T.V. and this kid mentioned that one reason people have motorcycle accidents (barring poor road conditions) is failure to commit (such as in a twisty).

Opinions?


(side note to trbig... that pic? Nope... nothing like it... I hit a wood door... good and solid... made great brakes... and breaks...

Common sense can sometimes only be acquired by a hard lesson.

)

[motoman]

Food for thought(or for riding). Less attribuated to commitment, more attribuated to riding beyond ability. No substitute for years of experience, correct reactions from memory of prior similar situations.............and old age and treachery.

[Pat Kelly]

Once you commit that can limit you ability to adapt, not that it does limit, but can.

I remember the 1st time I decided to lean the bike wwaayyyy over. This was my 400cc Honda Hawk. The lean angle before anything scrapes is well past 45 degrees, I would guess 35-40 degrees. I set-up for a corner well ridden by me at a time of day with little (none but it was still a public street) traffic. It was a90 degree right hander and not an intersection. Speed up to 50 MPH, lean body to the right, strong counter-steer left, and BELIEVE that the tires really will grip and not slide out. Popped around the corner, counter-steered right (into the turn) to pop the bike up straight as I centered my body back over the bike and away I went down the street.

Committing to do something I knew would work (but unsure of my ability) showed me a skill that opened-up options that allows me to adapt.

Same with braking, learning to do stoppies (not the show-off kind) allow you to use 100% of the front brake, your strongest stopping force. You need to commit yourself to doing something you're uncomfortable with.

Commit and adapt, balance the two.

[TopCatGr58]

Hey WildKat,

I agree with MotoMan, it's not so much the commitment factor, but the experience and skill factor. Knowing yourself and your bike's limitations, and not Xceeding them is the key!

I just got back from a great weekend run in Suches, Ga., where we went to Deal's Gap, and many twisty roads along the way. I committed fully to every turn, but I almost Xceeded me and my bike's ability in a couple of them, and thankfully due to some well timed braking, was able to maintain control and finish the turns. However, if I had not applied the brakes in a timely manner, I would have run or slid off the road.

Gary Granger was leading our little group, and he and the rest of us were pushing a bit, but not 100%, closer to 80%, which allows for some "wiggle" room to help get you out of trouble when the unXpected happens. As Pat said, having room to adapt!

T.C.

[prometheus578]

Commit and adapt, balance the two.

Being unbalanced, I couldn't adapt and was committed.
(Oh, were we still talking about riding?)

[Wildkat]

Thanks for your input

I was taking twisties pretty slow... intimidated by past experiences and lack of more experience. After hearing the phrase "failure to commit", I realized that, in a sense, this was my problem. I was so afraid of sliding or slipping again that I would slow down to a point where the bike became almost unstable... I was basically overcorrecting my problem.

Now the twisties are done with greater confidence, enthusiasm, speed... and enjoyment.


and Prometheus....

[MikeFromMT]

For me it’s a combination of confidence in my machine and my riding ability, I believe there is some truth in “failing to commit” to making the corner, I’ve pussed out at the last second and hit the brakes, which ended up with me doing the very thing I was trying to avoid, going off the high side, granted at a much slower speed but going over nonetheless. The only way to overcome this concern is to push yourself/bike until you find your limitation, not always a practical thing unless you have a safe riding area to do this and a bike that you don’t mind laying on it’s side, not to mention the proper riding gear and the mind set that you will be off the bike.
Some time ago I was on a BMW sponsored demo ride where we were encouraged to push the bikes performance but stay well within our riding ability, I was on one of their cruisers as was the guide, everybody else was on sport bikes, at the time I’d been riding Ducatis so I was comfortable with the twisties, our leader was an Edelweiss guide with lots of experience, I thought I was pushing my bike to it’s limits but the guide was far ahead of me and the sport riders were far behind, at one point I came into a corner a little hot and my first reaction was to hit those linked ABS binders hard, but instead remembered my training and held the throttle and pushed it over a bit more, coming out the other side no problemo. I know had I panicked and hit the brakes I would have gone over the side. (BTW I did slow down a little after that one)
I’ve also found that “target fixation” can also be a problem, look where you want to be, not where you don’t.

[CWilliamson]

I agree

When I get the xs running right I want to go to a track and see what it and I are capable of. Too many times I've been in the mountains and come in hot and the first instinct is to grab that brake which would have sent me into a guardrail or airborne. Everytime I've had to force myself to goose it a little more add to the lean and pull through. It's hard to know your and the bikes limit until you've done it in a safe place.

Clark

[HobbyMan]

I believe that you must be agressive when you ride a motorcycle. This does not meant that you cut people off or honk at them when they piss you off, but that you reamain in full controll of the situation(and motorcycle) and have an accurate idea of what is going on. You must commit fully to what you are doing. You must be careful what you commit to, that is where the experience comes in. You can commit to a turn, but if you are 100% sure that you will not make it, then you must commit to stop. It is kind of tricky.
I know that the capabilities of my bike exceed my ability to controll it. I never try to exceed my abilities when I ride, thus I remain safely within my bounds. I know that I do not have really any experience at all, but I am learning fast. Experience is what comes with practice. I have practiced %100 front breaking into a front wheel skid, and most of the other scary stuff that you try to avoid. I figure that if I know what it is like before hand, when I get into a scary situation, I will know what it is like. Its the drivers who are wishywashy about the way they drive who are the problem. When you don't commit and get half way through a menuver and back out of whatever you are doing, then you hit someone or crash. Thats what gets people killed.
An example I have seen which is an excellent representation: A woman was doing make up while I was on my way to school. She begins to move into the left lane, and while she does this, a car approaches from behind. At that moment, she swerved back into her original lane for some reason. THe cars nealy hit and the car in behind was forced into the shoulder. She did not commit to her lane change and almost had an accident. Luckily, I was not affected at all. This kind of stuff happenes all the time everywhere. So you must be prepared.
For some reason, I have a 6th sense about danger. Whenever I take fast corners on twisty roads, I handle my bike very well. But on some occasions, I get a strange feeling and instinctively I will straighten up and SLOW down. Whenever this has happened, there has been something that would have caused me a lot of trouble. Once it was a cop sitting on the side of the road radaring people, another time it was a car going head on towards me in MY lane. Who else gets these feelings? I guess that the moral of the whole story is that you have to remain in controll of your bike and remain aware of EVERYTHING that is going on around you.

I too would like to find out what my bike can really do on a track. In the mean time, I have a few buddies with radios looking for cops while I run the 1/4 mile section of road. I have never been able to do this successfully because of cops and the fact that it is just too fast.

[DeanR]

Probably a stupid question but, just what do folks mean by 100% braking and how can that and other maneuvers be "practiced"? I'm always practicing moderate things, a little beyond what I would normally do, but don't want to push it; which is exactly what you have to do to a degree.

[MikeFromMT]

When I practice braking it's to find my lock up point or on some bikes you can actually get the back tire off the ground, if you know where/when this happens you can plan for it or at least be aware of how much brake to apply and what to look for when you exceed safe braking, on bikes with ABS it's also good to know although they can be more forgiving than non ABS bikes. Too often many people don’t apply enough brakes until they’ve gotten too deep into a bad situation, then they grab for all they’re worth and end up locking up the tires causing a skid.
Best to practice in no traffic areas, rural roads. I live in the country so it's never difficult for me, also start slow and gradually increase speed/braking, another great place to learn is a MSF course or ask around for “track days” in your area.
Another good venue is to get an old dirt bike and practice off road, when you fall it's unlikely you'll get hurt and the bike can take more of a beating, then apply that to the road.
My XJ had poor brakes, then I replaced the brake lines and had to re-learn how much presure to apply. Had I just grabbed/stepped as I was used to prior to the relining I would have crashed.
HTH

[Pat Kelly]

When I practise braking I go to a deserted industrial area (after-hours) and take the bike up to 60 MPH. When I get to a designated spot (I used a manhole cover) I would stop like my life depended on it. After a day or two of this I cut my stopping distance by about 20 feet from 60 MPH, that's the length of a longbed truck.

The idiots doing 'stoppies' have light short wheelbase sportbikes and lean over the bars to balance over the front wheel to keep the back wheel in the air as long as possible. I know I've had the back wheel in the air on my E so I know that the bike does have the stopping power. You need to read the road surface and learn when the front wheel is going to skid. Obviously it is going to skid on dirt, gravel, sand, water, oil, etc. 100 % braking (in my book) is the back wheel no more that 1" in the air, preferably still on the ground, your weight as far back as possible.

When I was road racing bicycles and I needed to stop really fast I slid my butt off the back of the seat and had the seat pressed into my chest, butt hanging out over the back wheel. Race bicycles stop surprisingly quick for having pencil erasers for brakepads.

That's another good way to practice, on a bicycle. Allthe same principles apply. The speed is lower but the feel is the same.

[tommystinson]

All I can think of is a Porsche 911. Trailing throttle understeer is brutal. Come into a curve hotter than you'd like, well you had better keep the foot on the gas unless you like quality time with the guardrail!

[BLUEJEEPLAB]

Dirt riding is good for teaching you to hang it out. My XT 500 has taught me the value of throttle when you are thinking brake, such as in a soft berm when the bike is not tracking where you are guiding it. A tweek of the throttle and the rear brings the nose back to where you need to be. This approach is a little un- nerving on the XS, but it has helped me. Going back to TC and Pat's comments, it's all about experience, but experience also comes from experimentation.

I like the local school parking lot (not when the rug rats are there), I can get up to around 45 on it and slam on the binders. The Battle Cruiser needs a front caliper rebuild and new pads to be capable of a "stoppie" but responds to full clamp pretty well. Just as well for me, I like the idea of the pads out back doing their job as well...

[Wildkat]

Driver Education

I've thought about taking my bike to one of the lesser used parking lots around here to get more comfortable doing things that I don't normally do on the road (but may have to someday). Time and kids keep me from it... but it would definitely help with the fear factor.

Out with Foster Child the other day, we took some roads with some nice curves and I was keeping up with John rather well. Something about us both riding XSs (XSes?) and thinking, "If his bike can do it that fast... so can this one and therefore, so can I." On the FJ, I have this nagging voice that keeps saying, "If you lay it down... that was a LOT of money you wasted on paint." But I'm learning to ignore it...

I never road dirt bikes... I wish that I had as I believe that would have built up my confidence on two wheels. A little late to start now, I think, as recovery period for broken bones just isn't what it used to be...