"Closed", it said.

[DGXSER]

Thanks Prom. I have some reading to do.

[prometheus578]

DGXSER... sent ya a PM.

[DGXSER]

"I'm gonna approach this subject with an open mind. Can you point me in the direction of a good site which backs up some of what you're saying. I'll take the time to read everything there and then give you my honest appraisal of what I think."

Pardon my quoting form a separate but related thread. I'm interested, help me become educated.


Jerry,

Well, I certainly do not think our government is above what is truly human nature. The ability to rationalize anything and make it ok because we did it, we all do it every day to some extent. Some more than others, some to a much larger extent, but we all do it. What I do believe is that even what we think we know probably does not scratch the surface of what is, in these matters and others. so perhaps there is even more justifiable reasoning than we know about?

[prometheus578]

I for 1, don't belive our government was involved in the attacks.

Sadly, Jerry... my research has pointed me to forming other conclusions.

Hey, I mean... it'd be nice if it hadn't... but I don't form my opinions by "what would be nice".

Everyone makes their own reality... lives where they're most comfortable. What people chose to believe.. is based upon what they can accept.

Since most people don't lie... they have a hard time accepting that other people can, and do.

Most people wouldn't commit horrendous acts to further their own aims... but there's a lot of people who would.
If people can believe that some guy named bin Laden carried out this act to further his goals... why is it so hard to believe that our govt. couldn't or wouldn't do the same thing?
Blind faith... sort of what keeps religion goin'.

[Jerry]

I for 1, don't belive our government was involved in the attacks. However, I would like to point out that the US has meddled in this area before; Sadam Hussein got his poison gas from the US as well as the helicopters used to distribute it.

In Iran, the US overthrew the government and installed/supported the Shaw of Iran against the wishes of the people. Couple this with the US support of Saddam Hussein in the late '80s and early '90s (Regan time) against iran, and it isn't hard to see why we are not universally loved for our foreign policy.

What we were told: The fanatics don't like our lifestyle. While this may be true, the reason for the attacks came about as a result of failed foreign policy, not lifestyle dislike. However, easier for our govt to paint the US as the victim instead of facing the fact that our actions across the Muslim world, for decades, has pissed off a lot of people. We reaped what we sow...military action against a foreign country. The attack was no surprise.

For example, here is an excerpt about the US shipping materials to Saddam Hussein in the late '80s:

Howard Teicher, an Iraq specialist in the Reagan White House, testified in a 1995 affidavit that the then CIA director, William Casey, used a Chilean firm, Cardoen, to send cluster bombs to use against Iran's "human wave" attacks.

A 1994 congressional inquiry also found that dozens of biological agents, including various strains of anthrax, had been shipped to Iraq by US companies, under licence from the commerce department.

Furthermore, in 1988, the Dow Chemical company sold $1.5m-worth (£930,000) of pesticides to Iraq despite suspicions they would be used for chemical warfare.

Anyway, I digress....but the point is that most US citizens don't know or care about the effects of our foreign policy, that the US can be as dirty as any other government in the world to achieve its political ends, and that - somehow - we are the victims of unjustified hatered of radical Muslims. it plays well, but is far from the truth. If there is a conspiracy, it is that our government doesn't want citizen scrutiny of foreign policy, and perpetuates the idea that as a democracy (we are actually a democratic republic) anything we do must be OK, kind of like the Pope, since democracy is "God's Gift" to the world. How can you argue with a leader who claims he is carrying out God's will?

No, the conspiricy is not that our government toopk part in the attacks, but used them to further other political agendas at the expense of truth and civil liberties under the guise of "protecting" us against another 9/11. In the meantime, those angry Muslims are still out there.

[DGXSER]

OK, So I can be educated or at least understand what is being stated here, does anyone question that people that were not citizens of the untited states drove these planes into the buildings? WTC Towers 1 and 2, and the pentagon?

Is there a question or belief that our government planned these attacks? or supported them?

Just what is the "conspiracy" that is being proported here? The war in Iraq to me has always been a separate issue from 9-11. We went in because we did not like Sad dam insane, and so we took him out. From what I can tell, the people of that country were just about all very happy about it and that is from speaking to citizens of Iraq current and former. So we only helped them to accomplish what some seem to think needs to happen here if i am interpreting the intent properly.

I guess I am a sheep or something dummer as I don't see what is being questioned, the attacks, or the war that has followed.

[Jerry]

Hey, I like Maximan personally, rode from Colorado to Nevada with him. He just doesn't know when to quit on a thread...to bad, really.

As for govt / corp lying, anyone remember the book Nation of Sheep? (William J. Lederer (C) 1961 , or the more recent "A Nation Of Sheep" by Judge Andrew Napolitano, 2007) Easier to get people to hate/fear than to do anything else. Same applies to most religions I have encountered; you will go to hell if you don't worship or worship in our manner, etc. Fear is effective in manipulating human behaviour.

Death toll from 9/11:

2,740 Americans died in the September 11 attack.
As of June 2004, the official death count is listed as 2,976

We constantly hear that "3,000 Americans died" in the attack. Not true of course, but easier to round up the number and not remind people that several hundred non-Americans also died in NY that day.

Having grown up in the Vietnam War era, I am constantly surprised on how easy it is for politicians and others to manipulate opinion; you would have thought that we, as citizens, would have learned how to question what is presented to us by now.

I suggest anyone really interested in government misinformation read either or both of the books I mentioned above.

[DiverRay]

People who argue "from the heart" and not from the head...
present targets that I just can't pass up.

Yeah Prom, just cuz you need a new one....
There are easier ways to find them, I just have NOT figured out the formula as of yet.
Maximan IS very vocal on subjects, and like one of my sisters needs to be kept on a leash. He IS at his worse when the better half isn't around to keep him in control! But as you said, Tod, He DOES have a big heart, and really does try the best he can. We ALL have our "weak" points. We just need to understand this, and keep civil when buttons get pushed.(especially the "LAUNCH" button!!)

[prometheus578]

"Emotional debates"

He is passionate about many things, but he really does have a big heart.

People who argue "from the heart" and not from the head...
present targets that I just can't pass up.

[trbig]

I made Maximan so mad he climbed over Miles, left the table at the restraunt and he went back to his room. We were talking tires.

Next time, talk praise about our current president and also how we need gun control. It will save him the time of having to sit down first and climb over poor little defenseless Miles.

He is passionate about many things, but he really does have a big heart.

Tod

[Pat Kelly]

Well heck. Even when that Maximan guy shows up, people are still speaking. NOBODY is as bad as he was... so I think the rest of us milder folk will be ok. Even when grouchy-azzed Prometheus showed up last summer, talk quickly fell to whispers... but then he bought beer and all was well.

Tod

I made Maximan so mad he climbed over Miles, left the table at the restraunt and he went back to his room. We were talking tires.

[webbcraft2150]

Arrrugghh!!! I been duped, a victim of an evil conspiracy that make me tremble at the thought of dumping Mobil 1 into my beloved XS, sweat breaks out on my brow at the thought of running anything except Elite II's. The little voices in my head that battle when I reach for store brand Mac-n-Cheese, visions of the little kids on the TV commercial touting the name brand stuff forces me to grab the K-R-A-F-T. My hand twitches at the gas pump, undecided whether to use regular or the good stuff, "it won't make any difference which grade you use", memory of a protesting, pinging engine pulling a load in the summer heat forces my trembling hand to grab the preimum handle.

I am really confused now, I am gonna go watch a rerun of the moon landing, that didn't happen.

And....this is the section that deals with pert near anything, Idle Talk Forum has nuthin to do with pilot screw settings. "Civil talk", Prom excluded!!

[trbig]

if you show up for a ride this summer and no one is speaking.

Well heck. Even when that Maximan guy shows up, people are still speaking. NOBODY is as bad as he was... so I think the rest of us milder folk will be ok. Even when grouchy-azzed Prometheus showed up last summer, talk quickly fell to whispers... but then he bought beer and all was well.

Tod

[Wildkat]

except the spam-bots who make it through and force me to click on the smut stuff..

the spam-bot made you do it? ummmmmmmmmmmm... yeah...
I know... you're just making sure there aren't any viruses... to protect the rest of the members... right?
that would make you what? a Trojan man?

lol

Just don't be surprised, if you show up for a ride this summer and no one is speaking.

I don't know... depends on the maturity of the people involved... Some of the most heated arguments in the forum have involved some of the nicest people when you meet them in person...
If anyone gets that hung up on topics here... then like trbig suggested... might be best not to click on anything one would find offensive...

[wa407mpp]

When discussing these three subjects it remains civil for a short time, then feelings are hurt and then it's down hill from there, But that's up to you, Just don't be surprised, if you show up for a ride this summer and no one is speaking.